DB1991

Member
Hi Everyone,

I recently purchased a Case 200 Dual Range tractor with a Woods finish mower. It started right up for the test drive the other day, last night for a ride around, and today for me to begin mowing. About half way through mowing, the tractor died like someone had turned the key off. I disengaged the PTO, shifted to Neutral and it started back up. I did about 15 minutes more work until it died again. Now it will not start back up. I had ran the tractor for about 2.5-3.0 hours total before any of these issues happened.

It was running low on gas today, so I put 10 gallons of Regular grade gasoline in it before starting it up for the first time.

It cranks over fine, it has oil. I think it may be an electrical issue seeing that it died out of nowhere instead of sputtering out first.

I saw coolant temp was around 180F. From the manual I have, isn't the thermostat supposed to open around 175-180F? Originally I was thinking it could be an overheating issue, but that seems unlikely. On that note, I pulled the cap off the radiator and am unable to see any fluid near the top of the fill neck. Does anyone have a best guess as to the location of the fill line? I don't want it to start bubbling out once I get this figured out.

Thank you in advance!

Dayton
 

Thanks for responding. I also neglected to mention that somewhere along the way the tractor was converted to 12V.

I will check tomorrow. Are you leaning towards it being the ignition coil, or the coils on the plugs? I think it would be the ignition coil as I suspect the engine would start and run (badly) on 3 cylinders.
 
The original T-stat cracked at 148 - 153 degs F. Some people are using 180 T-stat. I have been using 160 in my 300's which originally had the same T-stat as the 200B.

The radiator needs a 3-4 lb cap which increases the boiling point to about 225. In any event 180 is not too hot for this engine. The level in the radiator can vaporize off over time if the cap seal is leaking or the neck seat is not the best.

If the engine restarts and runs for a period after it has sat for awhile the problem is likely lack of fuel to the carb. You dumped 10 gal in a nearly dry tank which would stir up any debris in the bottom of the tank which can possibly plug the screen in the sediment bowl or carry over to fowl the carb. Shut the valve on the sediment bowl, pull the plug on the bottom of the carb bowl. Open the sediment bowl valve and catch the fuel draining out of the carb, check for sediment. You should get a full flow with no slowdown. Drain about a quart to be sure.

Joe
 
My 210B pretty much won't run when it gets down to it's last gallon of gas. The only time it acts like yours though is when the fuel filter is clogged. If I clean or change the filter it will run fine again.
 
(quoted from post at 20:39:14 08/08/17) The original T-stat cracked at 148 - 153 degs F. Some people are using 180 T-stat. I have been using 160 in my 300's which originally had the same T-stat as the 200B.

The radiator needs a 3-4 lb cap which increases the boiling point to about 225. In any event 180 is not too hot for this engine. The level in the radiator can vaporize off over time if the cap seal is leaking or the neck seat is not the best.

If the engine restarts and runs for a period after it has sat for awhile the problem is likely lack of fuel to the carb. You dumped 10 gal in a nearly dry tank which would stir up any debris in the bottom of the tank which can possibly plug the screen in the sediment bowl or carry over to fowl the carb. Shut the valve on the sediment bowl, pull the plug on the bottom of the carb bowl. Open the sediment bowl valve and catch the fuel draining out of the carb, check for sediment. You should get a full flow with no slowdown. Drain about a quart to be sure.

Joe

Thanks Joe. I got a picture of the Sediment bowl, I am thinking it is the main culprit.

9nCoZgm.jpg


I also took a video last night of my attempted start. When I get home today, I am going to drain and clean the sediment bowl. Then I will pull the plug on the bottom of the carb and hopefully that clears everything up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i134P3uUDmw
 
Alright. I got home and cleaned the sediment bowl. Then I pulled the plug on the bottom of the carb and got a good 1/4 mason jar full out with no sediment. I turned the key and it started right up.

I mowed for about an hour and it died on me again. I restarted it and it ran for a bit before dying again.

The sediment bowl is full and clean. The inline filter between the sediment bowl and carb is clean. Coolant shows 180F. I hear a "dripping" sound from the front of the tractor after it shuts down and I get up close to it. There is no steam or hissing sound coming from the tractor.

Any ideas?
 
Check the screen in the top of the sediment bowl is in good shape. The bowl assemble has about a 1" stand pipe in the tank. Check the bottom of the tank for accumulated debris.

Joe
a168460.jpg
 

I went and re-drained the sediment bowl. I opened the valve and it flowed freely in to the mason jar. I then tried to start it and it didn't start.

I pulled the plug on the bottom of the carb and let it drain some more too. Same thing, no start.

Coolant temp is still sitting at around 170-180.
 
Also, I do not have the screen in your picture. The gasket has seen better days as well. It doesn't leak, but it needs to be replaced.
 
Thought my 730 CK gas needed carb rebuild......but found gas was not getting to the carb. Junk in gas tank had top stem of sediment tank stem partially plugged.

John
 

Gas is getting to the carb though. I also pulled the sediment bowl completely off and opened the valve. Fuel flowed freely in to the jar I had placed under it. I re-assembled that and pulled the plug on the bottom of the carb. Fuel flowed freely from there as well.
 
Certainly time to check for spark. Pull off a plug wire and see if you get about 1/4" or better of blue spark from plug wire to ground. Do this when the tractor is not running, of course, and please make sure it's in neutral with wheels blocked before you crank it; you'll be standing right in front of a huge tire that wouldn't even notice if it squashed you like a bug. Could be coil, points, condenser, wiring, really you need a manual, but if you have that nice hot spark it's none of those. What do the spark plugs look like? And what individual coils are you talking about? I'd think a machine this old would have nothing but copper wire from the distributor to the plugs.
 
(quoted from post at 18:31:29 08/09/17) Certainly time to check for spark. Pull off a plug wire and see if you get about 1/4" or better of blue spark from plug wire to ground. Do this when the tractor is not running, of course, and please make sure it's in neutral with wheels blocked before you crank it; you'll be standing right in front of a huge tire that wouldn't even notice if it squashed you like a bug. Could be coil, points, condenser, wiring, really you need a manual, but if you have that nice hot spark it's none of those. What do the spark plugs look like? And what individual coils are you talking about? I'd think a machine this old would have nothing but copper wire from the distributor to the plugs.

I took a boot off #4 and put it on a plug and grounded it then cranked. There was no spark. I did it with #3 as well and no spark. I went and bought a new ignition coil and did the same test, no spark. I noticed that the 2 connectors to the ignition coil were extremely weathered, so I cut them off and put 2 new connectors on. I re-attached everything and turned the key and it started right up.

I'm not sure if I fixed it or just got lucky, we will see tomorrow morning.

I think I see a complete 12V rewire after this mowing season!
 
The in-line gas filter is not factory, someone added that probably because they were having fuel problems or thought they were. I don't trust added in-line filters although one may be necessary until the tank can be cleaned.

The drip sound may be radiator water overflowing through the leak-off pipe indicating the water is passing through the cap/seat. You should see some water under the tractor front. The cap/seat is not holding, the water pressure is above the 3-4 lb cap, there is air in the radiator from a compression leak, or the radiator is simply over full.

If it stops again and refuses to start, clean the points with a strip of sandpaper or the like. Corroded points isn't likely to shut down the engine but makes for hard/non-starting. Points gap is 0.020".

Joe
 
This is where the manual comes in--it'll have a wiring diagram. I'm in the habit of making a copy of mine, as I know I'm going to get huge ugly grease marks all over it.
 
(quoted from post at 05:42:00 08/10/17) This is where the manual comes in--it'll have a wiring diagram. I'm in the habit of making a copy of mine, as I know I'm going to get huge ugly grease marks all over it.

Yeah I understand. The tractor was converted from 6V to 12V at some point in the past, so it will be a little different. It was just delivered to me on Monday, so I am still learning.
 
Thanks Joe. It appears as though a small amount of fuel is leaking near the aftermarket fuel filter, so I am going to remove it from the system.

How full should the radiator be when I take the cap off? I looked in there and shined a flashlight in and was unable to see any coolant whatsoever.

It happened again this morning while I was mowing. It started back up the first time and then refused to start again after it died the second time. I went to work and came back, turned the key and it started right up.

To me it almost seems like something is being heat-cycled and losing connection when it expands and gets too hot. I will dig deeper in to it in the coming weeks. Thank you for your help!
 
(quoted from post at 17:02:18 08/10/17) Thanks Joe. It appears as though a small amount of fuel is leaking near the aftermarket fuel filter, so I am going to remove it from the system.

How full should the radiator be when I take the cap off? I looked in there and shined a flashlight in and was unable to see any coolant whatsoever.

It happened again this morning while I was mowing. It started back up the first time and then refused to start again after it died the second time. I went to work and came back, turned the key and it started right up.

To me it almost seems like something is being heat-cycled and losing connection when it expands and gets too hot. I will dig deeper in to it in the coming weeks. Thank you for your help!

Coolant level should definitely be above the tubes in the radiator. Until you find and fix the leak, always add coolant to within 2" of the top before you start it up. Make sure your engine oil does not look like milk or butterscotch; if it does, stop trying to use the tractor and take it apart now, before it rusts up inside. MUCH cheaper that way. Quite possible your condenser is heating up and failing, and it's cheap enough to replace just to find out. I'd do the points at the same time. Another quick test that's free: when the tractor won't run, hook a wire directly from the battery to the power side of the coil. Will it start and run now?
 
Thank you. Engine oil is full and looks brand new. Do you know what coolant it takes? I will be sure to put some more in it before running it again. 50/50 with distilled water I think. I will try your test some time this weekend and let you know what I find. Thank you!
 
(quoted from post at 21:23:28 08/10/17) Thank you. Engine oil is full and looks brand new. Do you know what coolant it takes? I will be sure to put some more in it before running it again. 50/50 with distilled water I think. I will try your test some time this weekend and let you know what I find. Thank you!

If you have not I would head for the condenser, I have had a high incidence of one of the most popular brand names in the last few months, two out of brand new points and condenser kits, I finally went to a auto parts and got a replacement that cured the problem
 
Fix the leak on the in-line fuel filter, put a new screen in your sediment bowl and then get rid of the in-line filter if your tank appears clean enough. I like the points and condenser renewal too. Might not be the problem but it is cheap to find out and it probably is due anyway.

Joe
 
Yeah, 50% ethylene glycol. I thought I was the only one who used distilled water--can't get calcium deposits with no calcium present! Lately I've just been buying the premix, it's easier.
 
(quoted from post at 14:08:05 08/11/17) Yeah, 50% ethylene glycol. I thought I was the only one who used distilled water--can't get calcium deposits with no calcium present! Lately I've just been buying the premix, it's easier.

What kind of water is in the premix? I think I'll continue to mix my own not that I don't trust.....

Joe
 
Is there a way for me to find out what exactly this tractor is? Unfortunately the serial number plate is gone. I would like to know more info on what I have if there are any other places it is marked / any other defining characteristics.
 
You need more pics to ID the tractor. The original model/serial nr was located as pic 1. Check that it is not painted over, at least you should find two mounting holes there if it is missing. The 200B series tractors were built only in 1958 - 1959 model years. Your video is 1959 model year tractor. There are two models of the 200B. The 211B model is a general purpose tractor (Ag) with adjustable front tread and rear wheels are clamped to the axle so the tread can be adjusted by sliding the wheels on the axle. The 210B model is a utility tractor (industrial) with fixed front and rear wheels are bolted to the axle flange like the pic2. The rear tread can be adjusted by mounting the wheel dish in different positions. Both models have the 126.5 cid engine. The engine serial nr is vertically stamped into the block above the starter. The engine serial nr is 7 characters. Generally but not always the engine serial nr will be 201R + 5 digits.

I don't know of any real useful 200B info on the web but haven't spent much time looking. You might try a search. Tractordata.com has some info and also some errors. I had a 211B for a short time in the 70's, about all I know about them. The link is to Nebr test lab that is usually considered the last word in operational testing for all tractors. There is probably other info there if you can find it. I have found service manuals for a couple of tractor models on that site, you might get lucky. This test is a 1959 311B NFE tractor.

Joe
a168622.jpg

a168623.jpg

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article 2156&context tractormuseumlit
 
I made a couple of obvious errors, having trouble counting when I run out of fingers on one hand. The engine serial nr is always 9 characters. The tractor serial nr is 7 digits.

The Nebr test is 211B NFE tractor vice 311B.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 00:53:34 08/13/17) Joe, just curious, were all the B series only in '58 and '59? My 611B is a '59.

Yes as far as I am aware, All B series were 1958 & 1959 model years that run from 10/1/1957 to 9/30/59.

Joe
 
Might seem crazy but have you checked the gas cap and make sure it is venting. With plugged up vent motor will die after awhile from vacuum inside tank. Open tank again and runs fine.
 
(quoted from post at 09:45:41 08/13/17) Might seem crazy but have you checked the gas cap and make sure it is venting. With plugged up vent motor will die after awhile from vacuum inside tank. Open tank again and runs fine.

Yeah, after the first time it died I took the gas cap off and tried again. Still nothing.

I bought a tune up kit for it. New Distributor rotor, points, and condenser that will be here on Friday. I will try it all this weekend and we will see what happens.
 
I finally got around to replacing the distributor rotor, points, and condenser. It fired right up afterwards. I guess we will see if the problem persists after I start mowing with it.

I need to replace the fuel line next, as the previous owner used pieces of copper pipe to hold 2 lines together instead of a hose barb.

There is also a Hydraulic leak. I don't know the name for the part. The operators manual I ordered should be here today. It looks like the main valve body for the hydraulic system potentially has a bad gasket around it. I will take a picture of it later and post it here.
 
I need to replace the fuel line next, as the previous owner used pieces of copper pipe to hold 2 lines together instead of a hose barb.

Take care of all your fuel issues. I like the coil and condenser renewals but your tractor has every indication of fuel starvation. I been down this road several times with the VA & 300's with added fuel filters, leaks, fuel obstructions that just don't show up in a static test.

Joe
 
I replaced everything between the sediment bowl and the carb. New brass fittings, hose barb, new fuel lines.

I took some pictures of the hydraulic leak I mentioned. Running about 40% throttle, you could see a stream of oil pouring down from this point:

PWMJG


That point is the shaft coming off the Control Valve (13) in this picture:

2gSUf


Could it be as simple as the O-ring there is bad?
 

The pictures didn't post... I will try it again.

I replaced everything between the sediment bowl and the carb. New brass fittings, hose barb, new fuel lines.

I took some pictures of the hydraulic leak I mentioned. Running about 40% throttle, you could see a stream of oil pouring down from this point:

Q5v3TlL.jpg


That point is the shaft coming off the Control Valve (13) in this picture:

1GakHf5.jpg


Could it be as simple as the O-ring there is bad?
 
The control valve shaft seal is a common lip seal Case p/n G13807 which is most likely a National seal. You can cross-ref the Case p/n to a national seal p/n at the 1st link or to a CR seal p/n at the 2nd link. Personally I prefer National seals but CR seals are usually carried at Napa and other auto parts store but they can order National. There appears to be significant corrosion on the spool shaft in way of the seal???

If you want to operate the tractor w/o hydraulics you should have plunger in front of the control valve to disengage the hydraulic pump drive. Tap the plunger out with a screwdriver/hammer per pic.

Did you get a screen for your sediment bowl (yeah, I know I am a PIA on fuel).

http://www.fme-cat.com/

http://www2.chicago-rawhide.com/popup_parts_lookup_457012.htm

Joe
a170045.jpg

a170046.jpg

a170047.jpg
 
Thanks Joe. The screen should be here in a day or 2.
I also got a new gasket for it. In addition to G13807 part that you mentioned, I was also planning on replacing the o-ring 08377AB. I can't find it available anywhere. Do you happen to know the size so I can find an equivalent somewhere?

Could you clarify this part for me:

"If you want to operate the tractor w/o hydraulics you should have plunger in front of the control valve to disengage the hydraulic pump drive. Tap the plunger out with a screwdriver/hammer per pic."

Are you saying I am missing the plunger? Or that the plunger that is there needs to move in or out relative to its current position.

Do you think if I tried to clean up that shaft with some emery cloth that it would do the trick?
 
I went outside and actually looked at the tractor. The plunger you were speaking about is on the right hand side of the tractor and seen here:

GJoWvX4.jpg


The part I had questions about is on the left hand side of the tractor and seen here:

Pir37fM.jpg


Sorry for the mix up!
 
O-ring p/n O8377AB changed to A27352. I don't know the size off-hand. When you get it out take it to Napa, other auto parts store, hydraulic shop, etc and match the size. Use Nitrile (Buna-N). The O-ring here is not used as a seal just a wiper, nothing special about it.

You really need to get every thing clean before you even start to take the valve out. Everything has to be clean, clean, clean as you proceed with this entire job. I would try to clean up the corrosion on the shaft with medium and then fine emery cloth. Run you thumb nail all over the shaft to check for rough spots that can cut/wear the new seal. Worst case is finding a speedi-sleeve that will work or maybe a complete valve, not just a spool.

The shifter plunger probably has not been disengaged since the tractor was built. Lightly tap it out with a hammer and some kind of drift like a flat blade screwdriver to match the one in my pic that is in the disengaged position. If it initially just moves a little, tap it back in and back and forth until it moves freely.

Don't forget to check/clean your Hydraulic return oil filter.

Joe
a170284.jpg
 

Picture Time:

The points before I replaced them:

hicaIto.jpg

nQDrGgj.jpg


It still bogged down and died while mowing a section of grass that wasnt particularly tall. Me and my buddy tore in to it and re-did the entire wiring harness. We also took the hydraulic control valve off and I replaced that lip-seal. Thanks for the direction and part number Joe. I am currently waiting on the gasket that goes between them (G46838). Until then, the tractor is in the current state of being a lawn ornament.

jeYoFKh.jpg


I will update again once I get the gasket in and we will see if the problem is gone!
 
(quoted from post at 20:00:13 09/04/17) The points really needed replaced. Did you check the air cleaner, if not take the pipe off at the carb and run it disconnected for awhile. I've seen the filler pretty well blocked with congealed oil, although should have shown some smoke at higher loads.

This site sells filler.

Joe
http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/S43231_Air Cleaner Filler_15911.htm

Yeah I replaced the points, condenser, and distributor rotor. I just wanted to post a picture of what the old ones looked like.

I checked the air cleaner as well, it looks brand new. The oil in the oil cup is brand new as well.
 
Alright... update...

I finally got the gasket in and put everything back together.

Good news: the front hydraulic leak is gone.

Bad news: The lift arms in the back wont lower.

Do you have any idea what could cause this? Could it be the spool valve is upside down from the orientation it is supposed to be? I am kind of at a loss for what would cause it to not lower.

Thanks in advance.
 
If the interlock block, hydraulic line and linkage is still on the right side of the tractor then the control valve is not upside down. The notch in the spool end that connects to the linkage is oriented down for the linkage securing pin.

The draft arms drop by gravity so the only thing keeping them up is mechanical problem in linkage, piston assembly, etc or a hydraulic lock. Most likely in this case is a hydraulic lock where the return oil is not getting back to the sump. You could check that be disconnecting the hydraulic line, bleed off and see if the draft arms drop. With that in mind, what all did you have apart in the hydraulic circuit?

Joe
 
Also check that the linkage is moving the spool full travel, especially in the down position.

Joe
 
A couple things to check on this page. I have only worked on stacked control valve systems, the spool slot was down on both valves. Page is from 300B service manual but I am almost certain it is the same as I remember on the 200B.

You probably already know but just in case, the hydraulic pump needs to be running to provide pressure to reposition the safety interlock block spool and relieve the hydraulic lock on the hitch piston for the draft arms to drop.

Your last tractor pic is a 1959 model 211B.

I am going back to bed now.

Joe
a171289.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 21:33:22 09/08/17) A couple things to check on this page. I have only worked on stacked control valve systems, the spool slot was down on both valves. Page is from 300B service manual but I am almost certain it is the same as I remember on the 200B.

You probably already know but just in case, the hydraulic pump needs to be running to provide pressure to reposition the safety interlock block spool and relieve the hydraulic lock on the hitch piston for the draft arms to drop.

Your last tractor pic is a 1959 model 211B.

I am going back to bed now.

Joe
a171289.jpg

Thanks Joe. What I did:

Removed fuel tank. Took out 8 bolts that holding control valve on. Took out the Roll pin holding the valves spool end on. Took out the bolt beneath that (I thought it was necessary in order to remove the control valve), and disconnected the hydraulic feed line to the right hand side of the tractor.

I pulled off the valve spool retainer, and pulled the valve spool out of the control valve. I then removed and replaced the lip seal. I then put the spool valve back in to the control valve, and put the valve spool retainer back on. I cleaned the old gasket off the control valve side and tractor side.

I put the control valve back on the tractor, reconnected the hydraulic line, and put the fuel tank back on.

I started the tractor up. The mower was laying on the ground from when I removed the hydraulic feed line originally. I pulled on the lift lever and it raised the mower without issue. When I pushed on the lever, nothing happened. Upon investigating, the valve spool will not move forward when I push the raise/lower lever in to the lower position.

I wonder if it is 1 of 3 things:

1: If I have the valve spool installed 180 degrees backwards. The pictures I have found show the slot facing down. Mine is currently facing up. However, I believe the valve spool has the same geometry all around, so I don't think that would be it. Something I should fix still.

2: If the bolt (going towards the ground from the roll pin on the valve spool slot) is installed incorrectly. When I operate the raise/lower lever, I can see the rod that it rides on move. The valve spool does not go in and out with it. I don't have a detailed view of that shaft, but it seems to me that there is a screw for a reason. Is there a flat area on that rod that the screw is supposed to push against to act like a set screw? I was able to get the screw fully run down, which means that I should be on that service/hole if there is one.

3. The gasket that I bought is somehow blocking an oil drain line and not letting the control valve relieve hydraulic pressure.

With these 3 ideas in mind, I think I am going to have to take it all apart and inspect it further. (I am getting really quick at tearing in to this thing!)

If you have it, I would like more clarification on that bolt that goes towards the ground from the orientation of the roll pin on the valve spool slot. I believe that could be causing my hangup.

Thank you very much, I appreciate all the help.
 
1. As you suspect, as far as control valve operational function it doesn?t matter whether the spool is installed slot up or slot down but it may have something to do with the arc of bellcrank movement as instructions emphasize the slot shall be down.

2. I can not visualize what bolt you?re referring to. Can you post a pic of the bolt or general area. I am not home, don?t expect to be before tomorrow or possibly Tues, can?t check my manuals or my tractors (310 & 311B). I have all pic on this laptop but nothing there rings a bell.

3. Very unlikely gasket, very long shot, last resort thing.

What I am getting from your reply is that the spool is not moved in the down position by the linkage, bell crank. Before you tear every thing apart, loosen the valve body bolts some equally and check spool movement. Uneven torque is a common reason spools bind in the valve bores. I also remember 2 different length bolts used to mount the valve body though think it was obvious different length location.

Joe
 
Sorry for the late response Joe, I have been on a business trip since Saturday. I won't be able to send any pictures until Saturday or Sunday.

Thanks!
 

I think we fixed it.

Pulled the gas tank off, pulled the metal hydraulic line off the control valve. Let gravity take the deck to the ground. Pulled the spool valve out and flipped it to the correct orientation. Put it all back together and it raises and lowers just fine now.

We will see what happens next time I mow, I will probably find something else to fix!
 
Apparently the arc of the bell crank doesn't move the spool far enough in the return position when the slot is turned up. When you have stacked control valves like my tractors both upper and lower control valves/spools are identical and interchangeable as a unit. The upper control valve is simply mounted upside down on the lower control valve but the spool is turned over so the slot is down same as the lower control valve. It is mounted this way to have the safety interlock and hoses/piping on the left side of the tractor instead of the right side like the lower valve.

Joe
 

Update..

The tractor starts bogging down while mowing. It isn't in anything particularly thick. It handled other sections of the lawn that had much higher grass without bogging down at all.

I got it back to the barn and put it on the battery tender, and the green light came on after a couple minutes. This tells me that the battery was almost fully charged, so I don't think it's an alternator issue. It could be the battery maybe going bad?

It had a fresh tank of fuel and there is no debris in the tank. Brand new fuel lines to connect from the sediment bowl to the carb. Checked the coolant and it looks brand new and is within a couple inches from the fill neck.

At this point I am thinking check spark plugs? I seriously do not think it is an electrical issue, we just made a brand new wiring harness for it 2 weeks ago. Points, condenser, and distributor rotor are all brand new.

Any thoughts/ideas?

Thanks,

Dayton
 
I would check the plugs just to see what condition they are in and for possible combustion anomalies but I don't think plugs are your problem. I routinely check all those basic items including ignition timing, valve lash, etc when I get a tractor.

I still think your problem is intermittent fuel starvation. At this point I would get into the carb, check for debris, free float movement and adjustment, etc. Unless it has been changed out 200B normally had a Marvel Schebler TSX carb. The model nr & date of mfr of the carb is usually stamped on a tag on the blind side of the choke pivot (pic). A basic kit is likely all you need ~$15. If the tag is missing, MS small bowl carb basic kit is pretty much universal and interchangeable. Napa and some other auto stores.

Float function is important for maintaining the proper carb bowl fuel level that helps control delivery (pic).

Kits come with instructions. Link is MS repair/service manual if you want to read up on it.

Joe
a172965.jpg

a172966.jpg

http://www.carburetor blog.com/manuals/dltx_tsc_manual.pdf
 
Excellent pics! Three things: floats are cheap, put a new one in. I didn't until mine filled with gas two weeks after I went through the carb. Adjust the drop, also, can't have the float rubbing on the side of the bowl. And when clamping a carb in the vice, thread a couple bolts into it and clamp on them so you don't warp or crack the carb.
 

Just wanted to give an update where I am at.

I ordered a carb rebuild kit, a new fuel cap, a new 4lb radiator cap, new distributor cap, and new spark plug wires.

I started the tractor and started pulling coils off. Cylinders 1,2, and 4 made a distinct difference when I did this, but cylinder 3 did not. From that, I see there is no spark in cylinder 3.

I took the wires off of 3 and 4 and swapped them and did the same test. 4 bogged down again, and 3 made no difference.

I then took a spark plug and grounded it and checked it when connected to 3 and 4. Both sparked. This lead me to believe I had a spark plug issue. I bought new plugs and put them in and tried the test again. There was no difference in sound in #3 when I pulled the coil off.

I then cleaned off the ring around where the spark plug seats. I pulled the valve cover off and checked lash at this point. I couldn't really figure out a simple way to bar the engine over by hand with the radiator in the way, so I just bumped the starter until each cylinder was in the compression stroke. I looked at the valves and unfortunately it isnt 2 flat surfaces mating to one another. It looks more of an arch like this but rotated ( .

I shot for best guess to .014" and put it all back together. I started it back up and then pulled #3 coil and the engine bogged down. The tractor bogged down with removal of other 3 coils as well.

So, with that fixed, I decided to try mowing again. As soon as the tractor was under load, it started dying again. This only happens under load. I can put it in neutral on flat ground and run the tractor all day. As soon as I try to work with it or go uphill, the tractor bogs down and dies.

I believe it is looking more like a compression issue on #3. I am going to rent a compression tester and take a look at each cylinder.

I have the carb rebuild kit coming in the mail. It can't hurt to do, but I don't think that's the main issue.

More to follow unless there are any suggestions / other things I should check for.

Dayton
 
When you bump with the starter the rotation usually bounces back. You want to turn the engine CW, as viewed from the front, to near TDC and don't back up so all clearances are pressed up in the direction the engine runs.

The top of the valve stems are ground flat, the mating tappet on the rocker arm is an arc as you describe yours.

I use a flat wrench like this on the crank jaw to turn 300/300B tractors. Otherwise you might find it easier to rig up something like a crank. Valve timing #1 near TDC on the compression stroke set lash #1:I&E - #2:I - #3:E Turn crank one full turn CW, #4 is now near TDC on the compression stroke set lash #2:E - #3:I - 4:I&E.

Do the compression check cold. Fully charge the battery, leave charger on battery until all cylinders are checked. Let the charger recover full charge between cylinders. If you have a low cylinder, after you have run all the rest of the cylinders put a little engine oil in the low cylinder and do the check again. The oil will temporarily seal the compression ring so if the compression rises the rings are leaking by. If remains low indicates valve/guide leak.

I think at this point you need to check that your distributor is advancing with the rpm. Definitely cause a bog down if it isn't. Can you turn the rotor some back & forth feeling spring tension both ways. Might be worth your time to pull the breaker plate and check the springs. The best way to check advance is with a timing light, you should check the engine timing anyway since nothing else has helped so far.

Joe
a173627.jpg
 
Something I forgot on the compression check that I just saw mentioned by mel on another post. Have your throttle wide open for the compression test, plugs out. Check your choke open also.

Joe
 
That's what I've always called a Model A wrench. I think I still have one buried somewhere.

You should be able to remove all the spark plugs and turn the engine over by simply turning the fan. Always work on the tractor with it in neutral, of course. Run the valves as Joe suggests, or I recommend watching each cylinder's opposite valves, that is, watch the #4 exhaust closing, as it closes its intake starts to open. This should happen at top dead center for both #1 and 4. If those pistons are not at the top when those valves do that, that's your problem. Anyway you can adjust #1 when #4's valves are doing that, adjust #3 when #2 is doing that, and vice versa. I just run through the firing order 1-3-4-2. As you already found out, do that before checking compression. Joe's right about the oil, it's called a wet test. But Joe forgot to mention that the throttle should be wide open, and it's a good idea to stick a piece of paper or plastic, something non-conductive, between the points. Probably the worst that would happen is a medium-sized "poof", 'cuz there's no containment here, but you could lose some hair and some enthusiasm for the project. Always better not to have explosive gasses and sparks in the same spot unless you planned it that way. I agree that the timing should be checked, but I suspect the manual recommends static timing, where you put the motor at the timing mark and move the distributor until the points just open. I know my 611B is supposed to be timed that way, and it just about has to be, I can't see my timing mark with a strobe, there's too much oil splashing around. I still think you have a fuel problem but this is all just maintenance stuff that needs to be done anyway, especially since we know that your valves were so far off that one cylinder wasn't running at all, at least at idle. This is usually because it's too tight and the compression is leaking by it. If they're too loose they clatter.
 

I went to check out a compression tester at Autozone yesterday and it was broken. That, or I have 2 cylinders on a running 4 cylinder engine that have 0 compression (No way).

I am borrowing my friends today and I will see what I find..
 

Also, I pulled all the plugs and tried to bar the engine over by spinning the fan, the fan spun by nothing else did. I will check to make sure the belt is tight enough tonight.
 
Turning the engine is certainly possible if the belt is not old, hard, glazed but otherwise serviceable. I go for the belt first before the crank jaw wrench. Tying down the foot clutch & disengaging the hydraulic pump drive may reduce some drag. If you're into belt dressing, it might help to apply some with the engine running to get it coated.

I don't care much for static ignition timing on a dry clutch. We did that in the 50's. Of course it has its place for COM and tractors that do not have a rear main seal like the SC, etc. Timing light is accurate whether used by an amateur or experienced wrencher. Plus when used with an rpm indicator can be used to observe advance.

Joe
 

Alright... so I was able to do my compression test finally. Here are the results.

a77WXH9.jpg


You can see #3 was the issue. I put a little oil in it and did it again and it came up close to the other 3. I believe it is the rings in #3 at this point.

Another thing I noticed...

Ksyadgv.jpg


NZVCVzO.jpg


Any suggestions? It is probably too thin to tap for a brass fitting. I don't really want to buy a new radiator. Maybe just cut the top off and weld on a new neck?
 
Though that looks to me like its just an overflow tube.. I think I might just cross that bridge when I get to it. I need to have it working consistently before I tackle that issue.
 
#3 cyl is low and indicates worn rings but not the bog down problem. It is a back burner thing for a put-put use tractor.

The tube on the radiator neck is an overflow. No pressure on, it is above cap pressure seal. Ideally solder thin wall copper tube in but considering the age of the radiator and the heat required I think I would looking for a compatible epoxy.

Joe
 
Update:

I rebuilt the carb, re-checked valve lash, put 5 gallons of fresh fuel in it and went for it.

It worked for a while before it started dying again. I would disengage the pto, put it to idle, and let it sit for a few minutes. Then I would be able to do another 10 minutes of mowing before I had to repeat. This was in 2nd gear and probably 90% throttle. The coolant sits right around 180F, the fan is spinning, the radiator is completely clear of debris.

I then tried the "shift up throttle back" method, and put it in to 3rd and reduced the throttle to ~40%. The tractor seemed to like this much better, and I didn't have any bogging issues.

However, the problem I see coming from this method is that I believe engine speed is supposed to be 1750 RPM to maintain 540 on the PTO. I don't have the tachometer for this tractor, so I don't know for sure what engine speed is when I shifted up, but I don't believe it was at the full 1750.

Next steps for this tractor:

Buy the tachometer and cable for this tractor so I can monitor my speed

Fix the overflow on the radiator

Find and fix the exhaust leak out of the top of the exhaust manifold. (exhaust gas is coming out of the hood around the oil cap)
 
I have to admit that I am stumped. From what you are writing here changing to a lower engine rpm is the only thing that has made some improvement. That would be symptomatic of a very lean combustion mixture but if so the bog down should show up as soon as the load is applied not later down the road.

The only thing that I think you haven't done is check the ignition timing and the distributor advance.

As for the exhaust leak, the oil fill cap is the engine breather. I assume the exhaust leak is coming through the sheet metal around the fill tube and not up through the breather?

Joe
 
It has been a while since I updated this. I haven't had much time to work on the tractor the past few weeks.

I want to re-lash my valves by actually barring the engine over, not by bumping the starter. I am trying to figure out how exactly to do that though. Is there some special tool or adapter that goes through the hole on the front of the tractor?

Outside of that, I think I need to remove the radiator in order to bar it over.

Thank you!
 
(quoted from post at 15:37:58 11/06/17) It has been a while since I updated this. I haven't had much time to work on the tractor the past few weeks.

I want to re-lash my valves by actually barring the engine over, not by bumping the starter. I am trying to figure out how exactly to do that though. Is there some special tool or adapter that goes through the hole on the front of the tractor?

Outside of that, I think I need to remove the radiator in order to bar it over.

Thank you!

That hole is for a hand crank, which is used to start the engine in emergency situations. Like a low battery, or starter that is kaput. You can make one of these yourself, or try to find one that would fit your tractor.
 

Thanks for the info. Any recommendations on how to get in there and bar it over short of removing the radiator?
 
reviving this old thread....

I didn't do much work to the tractor during the late fall/this winter. I only use it to mow, so didn't have much use for it.

I replaced the rubber fuel line today thinking maybe the issue i had been having was fuel related. I put a steel line to the carb and tried running it, but it died after a minute.

I pulled the distributor cap off, the rotor, points, condenser as well. I discovered that the mechanical advance does not seem to be working. The springs do not return to their home position when you pull on them. I looked up the p/n for my Autolite 6003 2F distributor, and found IGC-118BS to be the springs I need. However, I haven't been able to find these springs anywhere online.

Would anyone have a source for distributor springs? If not, my 2 options are to buy a reman distributor, or find some springs that are roughly the same size and hope for the best.

Thanks!
 
Pull the cover, eyeball the weights and springs. Warming up the engine and shutdown cooling promotes moisture in enclosed areas, can cause rust and other binding. If the springs aren't broken you may just have to clean it up and lightly lube. Pic is IAD6003 2F.

Recommend you start another post as some of the guys only use the CLASSIC VIEW forum. I wasn't able to find your new comment over there. You could provide a link to the thread if someone wants to read the entire post from the beginning.

Joe
11442.jpg
 

Thanks, Joe.

To anyone that stumbles upon this (or wants to follow me and my tractor woes), the new thread can be found here:

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=8626000#8626000
 

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