Out of ideas II

Stephen Newell

Well-known Member
It was suggested I start a new thread because the other one was getting too big.

A recap, I've been having trouble starting my 210B tractor since I've had it and steadily getting worse. The tractor if it sits for hours will start instantly but if you turn it off and try to restart it the engine will only turn about 1/4 revolution and come to a complete stop.

1. The original starter was doing this and someone suggest I take it apart and clean it so I did that and
afterwards won't turn at all, not even on the bench. I couldn't find someone at first to rebuild the starter so I
bought a used starter and found it was working the same way so I think the problem is with the tractor instead of
the starter.
2. The battery cables are relatively new and sufficient size so that isn't the problem and the start solenoid was
just recently replaced with a heavy duty one.
3. It was suggested maybe the battery was bad so a second battery was installed. I have also tried jumping the
tractor off of a running vehicle directly to the starter.
4. It was suggested maybe the tractor was binding with the flywheel and maybe needed to be shimmed so I loosened the
starter and it didn't help.
5. Someone asked if I could turn the engine over by hand. This afternoon I removed the radiator so I could get to
the engine and I can turn the engine with a 12" crescent wrench but it's really hard to do it. I haven't tried
that without the spark plugs. If it didn't take a 1 1/2 socket I would put a torque wrench on it to measure how
much pressure. Just guessing I would say it's in the 100lb range.
6. It was suggested there may be an issue with timing and that is still in the works. One problem is my tractor
doesn't have an indicator pointer.

From the other thread L.Fure wrote:
The numbers you are seeing are degree marks. According to the I&T repair manual these are the numbers you need to set the timing at. 0 degrees @ 275rpm. 1 degree @ 300rpm. 8 degrees @ 475rpm. 12 degrees @ 800rpm. 13 degrees at 875rpm. Your static timing mark is DC. You should static time the distributor before you use the timing light to fine tune the timing with your light. Bring number one piston up on the compression stroke, then line the DC mark with the pointer on the side of the hole. Next you will have to hook an ohm meter or a test light to the points. Do not turn on the ignition if you use an ohm meter. After to have either hooked up turn the distributor until the needle on the ohm meter moves, or the light begins to flicker. Tighten the distributor clamp and see if the engine will start easier.

Few problems trying this, I don't have a timing mark on the tractor, the numbers under the timing light jitter so bad I can't read what they are. Then I don't have a way to determine engine speed.


From the other thread mEl wrote:
What kind of a timing light do you have, A modern advance style will make your job much easier. If I were you I would remove #1 plug and very carefully turn the engine till the piston gets close to TDC then look carefully in the timing hole and see if yo can locate a TDC scribe line, once you find it take a drill with a 1/4 inch bit and put a small drilling mark on the flywheel at TDC, then put a dab of white paint on it. Once you have that if you have a advance light you can set that at the desired running timing and turn the distributor till the light flashes at the white mark nlock er down

The timing light I have is a simple cheap light I maybe have had for 30 years.
 

I still think the timing issue should be explored to the end, so we can cross that off the list.

As for issues with the hydraulics working against the engine from turning over, You had the tractor running in the past, and you surly would have noticed problems with the hydraulics when the tractor was running. Post pictures of the hydraulics anyway just in case.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this problem. It's just going to take some time.
 
This is the only picture I have on my desktop. It will be probably Thursday before I can take some pictures. From what I can see I think the plumbing is standard for the #21 loader.
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I forgot to tell you to line the DC mark on the flywheel in the center of the hole since you don't have a pointer to go by.
 
There is some leakage in the main lift cylinders but other than that it is functioning well.

I will be working away from the house all day tomorrow so it will probably be Thursday before I can take any pictures.
 
OK, I made a mistake. I got underneath the tractor again this evening and cleaned the hole out and found the DC mark. I thought the pin was missing.
 
(quoted from post at 03:11:35 10/18/17) OK, I made a mistake. I got underneath the tractor again this evening and cleaned the hole out and found the DC mark. I thought the pin was missing.

The letters DC should be stamped onto the flywheel. You line them up with the pointer to static time your engine.

Before I owned a timing light I would static time my tractor engines when I needed to time them. The engines started and ran pretty good by using that method. After I started to use a timing light I found that the engines I static timed weren't very far off, if at all, from the prescribed degrees to be timed at a given rpm.
 
I had a similar problem with my tractor. I took mine out and at first it wouldn't do nothing. then it took off. I took it apart and clened it. installed it back and it worked fine. shut it off and went back 10 minutes later and it wouldn't start. pull the ban off and turn the shaft some and it started right up.. it look as though as all 3 points weren't seating correctly. you might try that. just saying
 
Not to say that you should not get the timing set properly but for a quick test when it will not turn over more than a 1/4 turn like you described try disabling the ignition.
Whatever is easiest for you;
Remove cap or disconnect coil or simply disconnect the wires from the spark plugs (be sure to mark them first)
If it does not turn over properly now then the timing is not the problem.
 
From the picture thats one sharp looking ole tractor. I think everyone has had a problem with a tractor that is elusive. The problem will be solved it may just take a little more time.

In the first thread i made the comment that I had a Allis engine that did something similar. My problem was valves and timing.

I hope you dont mind me asking some questions. I think we can solve this problem through a process of elimination by going one step at a time. I know you have already did a lot of work but please lets go one step at a time and maybe we (meaning the board) can help you.

Did the problem start with a starter problem or after engine work or other work?
 
curious,, It starts fine when cold. but not when warm. Why would it be timing ?
Does the engine stop with a 'clunk' or is starter not getting enough juice? In would test the
voltage at the starter, at the time it won't turn. Also all cable ends need to be wire
brushed shiny.. just my ideas.
 
The tractor doesn't stop with a clunk. I have a hunch what is going on is for some reason the engine is just hard to crank and the starter doesn't have the power to do it. I think after it sits for a while it builds up enough gas fumes it fires instantly eliminating the need for the starter.
 
Their was a problem starting the tractor from day one. After splitting the tractor and replacing the clutch it really didn't make a difference. At about the same time I sent the starter off to a shop and supposedly had it rebuilt. It wasn't very long afterwards where the tractor wouldn't start in winter although winter here means 40-50 degrees. It got to where in warm weather I could start the tractor and if I shut it off it might take me a half hour to start it. The engine would turn way too slow to have any chance of starting and eventually the starter would get hot and I would have to quit trying.

Now recently I attempted to just clean the starter internally and ruined it so I bought a used starter from a member here. It works identically as the other starter before I screwed it up.
 
I kind of did that. When I started removing spark plugs to see if I could get the starter to turn the engine I removed the coil wire. It wasn't until I removed all the spark plugs that the starter would turn the motor.
 
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are suggesting. I did try cleaning the starter and ended up making it worse.
 
Since it has been doing this since you got it and it is hard to start warm, any chance that somebody muffed a rebuild and put the wrong size rings in? Wrong sizes bearings etc?
 
(quoted from post at 05:12:47 10/19/17) Their was a problem starting the tractor from day one. After splitting the tractor and replacing the clutch it really didn't make a difference. At about the same time I sent the starter off to a shop and supposedly had it rebuilt. It wasn't very long afterwards where the tractor wouldn't start in winter although winter here means 40-50 degrees. It got to where in warm weather I could start the tractor and if I shut it off it might take me a half hour to start it. The engine would turn way too slow to have any chance of starting and eventually the starter would get hot and I would have to quit trying.

Now recently I attempted to just clean the starter internally and ruined it so I bought a used starter from a member here. It works identically as the other starter before I screwed it up.

Stephan,
Could you make a video of the engine while you try cranking it over with the starter? Record it with spark plugs in, and another with the spark plugs out. You can upload them on YouTube and post a link to the video here. I think seeing and hearing the engine in action would help us a lot.

When you bought the tractor did the owner give you an excuse as to why the engine turned over so slowly?
 
I've never tried to upload a video before. I will see what I can do.

I bought the tractor eight years ago. At that time the tractor it was only cranking slow now and then and usually when the engine was hot. I didn't buy the tractor from an individual, it was from an tractor and implement company. They may not have known there was any issue with it especially since it was just now and then. Now it's gotten to the point to where when I get the tractor running I have to leave it running until the task is done. Sometimes I just let the tractor sit and run for a couple hours at a time for fear I can't re-start it.

Looking through my records it was 2011 when I split the tractor.
 
I suppose there is the chance of that, I just don't know the history of the tractor prior to 2009. To me this engine doesn't look like anyone has been in it since it left the factory.
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(quoted from post at 12:22:34 10/19/17) I've never tried to upload a video before. I will see what I can do.

I bought the tractor eight years ago. At that time the tractor it was only cranking slow now and then and usually when the engine was hot. I didn't buy the tractor from an individual, it was from an tractor and implement company. They may not have known there was any issue with it especially since it was just now and then. Now it's gotten to the point to where when I get the tractor running I have to leave it running until the task is done. Sometimes I just let the tractor sit and run for a couple hours at a time for fear I can't re-start it.

Looking through my records it was 2011 when I split the tractor.

Up loading a video on YouTube is pretty easy. After you have it up loaded you can copy and paste the URL of the video on this site. I think it will help us find an answer to you problem

It gave you trouble only once in a while when you first got the tractor, and since then it has gotten worse. This is getting to be quite the puzzle for us armchair mechanics.
 
It's a puzzle for me too. I have worked and worked on this problem and have finally run out of ideas to try is why I'm here with it. Right now I think either the starter has insufficient power or something in the motor is so tight no starter could turn it. Like I said I put a 12" crescent wrench on the engine and it was all I could do to turn it. In all fairness though I've turned car motors by hand before too and they were equally as hard. I don't know. Maybe later today or tomorrow I will be finished with work for the week and I can get back on it.
 
The hoses all look new. I have never seen an industrial CASE, with an industrial Loader that didn't have the front mounted, crank driven pump. I still would like to see all the plumbing in detail.
 
(quoted from post at 09:09:22 10/19/17) The hoses all look new. I have never seen an industrial CASE, with an industrial Loader that didn't have the front mounted, crank driven pump. I still would like to see all the plumbing in detail.

I can't see how that front cover on the loader frames is located but I have a 530 diesel that has the common square drive crank nut and working through the pop out front cover in the main casting I use a 1/2 IN drive 2 foot extension and a long ratchet to turn mine to service the valve settings and procedures that require engine turning. Just be sure to remove before starting. Don't ask me how I know.. It's a good way to check out the condition of your ratchet, LOL.
 
(quoted from post at 14:09:22 10/19/17) The hoses all look new. I have never seen an industrial CASE, with an industrial Loader that didn't have the front mounted, crank driven pump. I still would like to see all the plumbing in detail.

Now you have me wondering. What I'm wondering about is if the loader is hooked up to the tractor hydraulics and the hydraulic levers on the tractor controls the loader. Would that create a dead end for the circulation of the oil in some way?
 
(A recap, I've been having trouble starting my 210B tractor since I've had it and steadily getting worse. The tractor if it sits for hours will start instantly but if you turn it off and try to restart it the engine will only turn about 1/4 revolution and come to a complete stop.)

Try ruling out heat as an issue.
Based on what you said above, what happens if you start it then shut it off within 10-15 seconds?

After this short of a run there will not be sufficient heat built up to make a difference.

If it will not start back up after this short of a run time then you are back to the drawing board with starter, battery, switches, connections, grounds, bad cables etc.
 
Stephen Newell; I know this is frustrating but let me share with you the approach that I would use if this was my tractor. You said you have had trouble starting since day one.

i know there have been various comments from hyd pump questions to bearings. so lets address the bearing comment.

May i ask that when the tractor is running what is the oil pressure. If the pressure is ok then that should rule out a bearing problem for now.

If this were my tractor i would First pull the valve cover and the spark plugs. Since you already have the cover off it will make this easier. What we want to do is check the valve tappet gap.

Having the plugs out will help us roll the engine and determine the top dead center and allow you to cold check the valve tappet and check valve timing and top Dead center.

Now Stephen if it is found that everything is OK. then you have eliminated this aspect of the equation.

One last question about the starter. What is the make and numbers of that starter. i personally know the owner of a company that supplies starter rebuild shops with parts. maybe i can help find parts for your starter if that is deemed to be the problem.

P.S> I know you fell that when you cleaned your starter your ruined it. PLEASE. PLEASE keep your old starter and DO NOT CONSIDER IT BAD. I thinking its a spring tension/brush problem and may still be able to be repaired.
 
Does this work? The illustration is the same as mine. The hydraulic pump is on the torque tube.
<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto4925.jpg"/>
 
The engine oil pressure was running around 25 psi. There is no make or model number on either of the starters.

I think before I make any attempt to remove the valve cover I need to locate a valve cover gasket first.

I'm definitely not going to get rid of the original starter. I thought I might try tinkering with it again and if I didn't have luck I have the name of a shop in Dallas that may be able to rebuild that starter. It doesn't make any sense, all I did is clean the starter internally and put it back together. The tension springs were good and the brushes seem to be worn a bit but there is still enough there it should work. I had it rebuilt in 2011 but I've only gotten 139 hours on the tractor since then.
 
It won't start again after starting it and shutting it off immediately. The only maybe is the starter on your list. Everything else has been checked out. Sometimes I wonder if there is a way to check a starter to see if it's delivering the torque it should be.
 
There is considerable leakage with the loader. I find it hard to believe it could be dragging the engine down. Anyway the loader has it's own control levers. It just draws pressurized fluid from the hydraulic pump the same as the eagle hitch.
 
(quoted from post at 02:56:58 10/20/17) There is considerable leakage with the loader. I find it hard to believe it could be dragging the engine down. Anyway the loader has it's own control levers. It just draws pressurized fluid from the hydraulic pump the same as the eagle hitch.

If you are concerned about the hydraulic pump dragging on engine start, disengage the pump drive. It probably hasn't been disengaged for a long time so you will need to tap it out with a drift. The 2nd pic shows the plunger in the disengaged position.

Joe
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(quoted from post at 20:48:00 10/19/17) It won't start again after starting it and shutting it off immediately. The only maybe is the starter on your list. Everything else has been checked out. Sometimes I wonder if there is a way to check a starter to see if it's delivering the torque it should be.

As I posted earlier;

(Try ruling out heat as an issue.
Based on what you said above, what happens if you start it then shut it off within 10-15 seconds?

After this short of a run there will not be sufficient heat built up to make a difference.

If it will not start back up after this short of a run time then you are back to the drawing board with starter, battery, switches, connections, grounds, bad cables etc.)

Given what you said then the likeliness of an internal issue in the engine causing the problem is not very probable.

The dilemma now is what is probable that fits the remaining circumstances.

-Switches, connections and cables do not magically repair themselves after they sit for a while.

-A starter that has not been worked hard is not going to suddenly decide to repeatedly work properly after a rest.

This leaves us with the battery which with a bad cell can do exactly what you describe, I had one like this in a yard truck that would start the truck just fine 4 out of 5 times then fall flat on its face.
Give it 10-15 minutes and for whatever unknown reason it would crank the engine over again and start the truck.
I would guess a poor internal connection in the battery was drawing high amps and getting warm inside, time to cool or crossing your tongue just the right way was enough for it to arc at the poor connection allowing it to deliver sufficient juice to the starter again.

I would not yet rule out what others have said regarding a dead head condition of the hydraulic pump as what else could be creating enough load to cause the engine to be difficult to turn in such a short time yet after a rest time=enough time for pressure to bleed down allow the engine to turn over again would be a conceivable possibility to consider.

Is there a way you could disconnect or disable the hydraulic pump to eliminate this possibility?

I had a John Deere once that went from having to put the loader control in float position in order to get the load low enough for the starter to spin the engine over to finally reaching the point that I had to de-stroke the pump before I could get it to spin fast enough to start.
 
No, I used the tractor for two years before tried to restore it and the problem was there then. It just wasn't as often usually when the temperature was below 40 degrees.

I'm off work tomorrow. I will see if I can get some better pictures. The ones I tried at night turned out terrible.
 
The battery issue was explored also. I put a newer different battery in the tractor and it made no change.

As far as connections I've put jumper cables directly on the starter from a running vehicle while cranking the starter.

I'm beginning to think the times the engine starts a cylinder fires helping the starter. I may try starting fluid when the engine is barely cranking.

It wouldn't be hard to disconnect the loader from the hydraulics but the hydraulic pump itself is internal.
 
Good info. So many are concerned about the hydraulics dragging the engine down. This is a good way to shelve that thought.
 
It started raining this morning and I got off on another project. I just now went out and gave it a try and it helped a tiny bit. Before it would start on the first try and then drag after that. With the spool out it started twice and then started dragging. After about six tries it stopped completely like you disconnected the battery cable.
 
(quoted from post at 19:23:52 10/20/17) It started raining this morning and I got off on another project. I just now went out and gave it a try and it helped a tiny bit. Before it would start on the first try and then drag after that. With the spool out it started twice and then started dragging. After about six tries it stopped completely like you disconnected the battery cable.

You say it helped a tiny bit yet from what you wrote technically speaking it is twice as good as it was before.

Although you have not identified the root of the problem, you have a direction to go in.

I have no idea if shifting the spool like you described completely disengages the pump, nor is there any guarantee the release is working properly.

What it would take to rule the pump out 100% I do not know.
Remove it?
Remove the drive coupler to it?
Drain out the oil?
remove the pressure regulator?

Could be as simple as a suction line collapsing, a restricted return line, a faulty bypass valve, a bad bearing etc.

Could also still be an electrical or starter issue, although the results improved when you went through the steps to reduce or remove the load from the pump you also stated when you removed the spark plugs which also removes some load from the starter it turned over better.

Shy of having a proven good starter, battery etc to rule them out all you can do is continue to beat to death any and all other possibilities until it is proven beyond a doubt they are not the problem or part of the problem.

There are times several small issues can work together to cause a larger harder to diagnose problem.
Diligence and taking nothing for granted is the only way to approach these situations.
 
Pulling the spool out disconnected the hydraulic pump. When I had it running I couldn't move the front loader. Where the hydraulic pump is located it would take a weeks work to remove it. I would have to be really sure there was a problem there before doing that.
 
(quoted from post at 03:08:07 10/21/17) Pulling the spool out disconnected the hydraulic pump. When I had it running I couldn't move the front loader. Where the hydraulic pump is located it would take a weeks work to remove it. I would have to be really sure there was a problem there before doing that.

In shifting the hydraulic pump plunger out in the disengaged position the linkage moves the drive shaft gear out of mesh with the pump driven gear. There is no point in pulling the pump, it is no longer mechanically attached to the drive.

There are a couple things when I look at your pic that are irritating. For instant your start solenoid is wired backward from the factory norm for Case tractors in this era. The cable from the battery should be on the outside terminal and inside terminal is to the starter. No solenoid I know about is polarity sensitive so that is not your problem. While we are on the solenoid, the wire from the ignition switch connects to the "S" terminal. If you are using a ballast in the coil input from the ignition switch, you should run a wire from the solenoid "I" terminal to the coil input terminal. That will give you temporary 12V to the coil to aide starting while the starter is engaged.

Another irritation is your distributor is not mounted in the factory attitude. I haven't seen one mounted in that particular position. How do you get to the oiler? Doesn't mean it is out of time it is just when the only 2 electrical components in view are not factory what else is not factory that can be causing problems. How did your light timing on DC come out?

Since you have a larger than normal voltage drop? on starting try connecting a spare battery directly to the coil input terminal and use the tractor battery to crank the engine. Just use alligator clips for a quick check.

Joe
 
The starter solenoid in the picture is no longer on the tractor. It seized up and wouldn't disconnect trying to start the tractor they way it's malfunctioning. I replaced it last week with a heavy duty solenoid.

I did have the S & I terminals wired like you stated. With the new solenoid there is only the S terminal so I have both S&I wired together. The solenoid only has two connections and one has to go to ground for it to function.

I have no idea what the distributor is suppose to be set up like. I know originally the tractor was set up with a 6v system and has been changed to 12v. Perhaps someone put a different distributor on at that time.

Between work and the weather I haven't had a chance to work on the timing.

There really isn't that much of an issue with the ignition, it's just the mechanical process of turning the motor. Either the engine is too stiff or the starter lacks the torque needed. I may have to go ahead and have the original starter overhauled and put it on the tractor to make sure I don't have two weak starters.
 
Sheeeesh Steven, I dropped my comment on your thread, go to bed and later read your response on my Kindle. Here I am back up and on the computer because I won't be able to sleep thinking about your problem.

The distributor is not voltage sensitive. No reason to change in a 12 conversion. Yours looks like the typical AutoLite IAD6003 common to the VA, 200B, 300/300B, 400B. Someone just stabbed it wrong, timed and may have gotten away with it. You'll know when you put the light on it.

"The starter solenoid in the picture is no longer on the tractor. It seized up and wouldn't disconnect trying to start the tractor they way it's malfunctioning. I replaced it last week with a heavy duty solenoid.
I did have the S &amp; I terminals wired like you stated. With the new solenoid there is only the S terminal so I have both S&amp;I wired together. The solenoid only has two connections and one has to go to ground for it to function."

I really don't understand the solenoid you are using although the starting problem was pre-existing.

Are you saying there is a terminal to ground??? The starter solenoids I am familiar with, the primary circuit is from the "S" terminal through the winding to an internal chassis ground. The "I" terminal is energized by the secondary starter circuit and is only hot while the starter has power.

You appear to be using a 3 terminal solenoid in a 4 terminal application. I don't know how that can work as the "S" and "I" terminals are tied so when the engine is running the ignition is back feeding the solenoid winding through the S &amp; I tied terminal. Why doesn't the back feed energize the starter, lower voltage of the ignition circuit maybe?

Joe
 
The old solenoids I've been using the base of the unit provides the ground to make it function. The one I have now you have to wire one terminal to ground to make it function.

I don't know the reason the tractor was converted to 12v. It was done long before I bought it.

I had put a timing light on it but I can't read the numbers on the flywheel. I can work on the static timing but I don't know when I can put a light on it again. I had to remove the radiator to turn the engine by hand and can't run it long enough to use a light without water.
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Good morning Stephen, a few more thoughts for you.
Joe(Wa) brought up some very good points and along with what you posted I believe there are a few more things for you to check/address.

The starter solenoid.

You said the first one you replaced because it was stuck in an engaged condition.
The main cause of this is a low battery, as the battery voltage drops the amps flowing through the circuit increase resulting in an abnormal amount of heat being generated where the disc in the solenoid touches the contacts, ultimately it reaches a point where the tension between the contacts and the disc can no longer handle the current demand and the connection is momentarily broken.
The arcing causes the disc to weld itself to the contacts.

This could indicate you still have an issue with the battery, alternately you may just have run it down too low trying to start it.

You replaced the solenoid with one that does not have the I terminal and that it requires if I understand your description correctly that one of the small terminals needs to be grounded for it to function.

Now how you have wired it has me scratching my head.
If I read right you said you have the wires that were on the S and I terminals on the old solenoid both connected to the S terminal of the new solenoid.

Unless you have installed a diode or a relay in the I wire that goes to the coil you are back feeding voltage from the ballast resistor to the S terminal when the tractor is running.

Being that the voltage from the ballast resistor is in the 6 volt range this may or may not be keeping the starter engaged after the engine is running, the life expectancy of the starter if engaged for an extended period of time is obviously greatly reduced, if this is the case your brushes and bushings may already be due for replacement.

You can test this by putting a volt meter between the ground and the S terminal on your solenoid and turn the ignition on, if you are reading any voltage with ignition on not cranking this needs to be fixed first.

Looking at the photo you posted today I would be replacing the cable you have that goes from the solenoid to the starter.

The solenoid you need for it to work properly would be from any early 70's ford product.
 
The wire going to the S terminal goes through the key switch from the battery and is only live when the key is engaged. It then goes directly to the positive side of the coil bypassing the resister which is a reduced voltage while the tractor running. It just gives more power temporarily at start up. I cut open the old solenoid and the S and I terminals are joined together internally so I don't see why I can't wire them together on the new solenoid. The solenoid that was in it has taken a lot of abuse. With the tractor only turning 1/4 turn at a time it and the starter would get really hot. Occasionally the starter would get so hot it would smoke and I would quit.

If the problem is with the battery then I have the same problem with two different batteries. While working on the tractor I have taken a battery out of one of my cars and put in the tractor. Also when I turn the key off the voltage returns to above 12v. I'm also keeping a float charger on the battery all the time now while I'm working on it.
 
Ok, I rotated the no. 1 cylinder to top dead center and this is where it lines up with the timing mark. I found it a more than difficult project to rotate the piston to the position. I tried putting a dowel in the hole and measuring the distance but it moved so slow turning it by hand I never could get a good measure on it. I finally got out an inspection camera to do it. While I had it out I inspected all four cylinders and none of them are scored.
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Tried again to get some pictures. The first picture is from under the tractor where the reservoir fits on the torque tube.
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(quoted from post at 10:01:31 10/21/17) The wire going to the S terminal goes through the key switch from the battery and is only live when the key is engaged. It then goes directly to the positive side of the coil bypassing the resister which is a reduced voltage while the tractor running. It just gives more power temporarily at start up. I cut open the old solenoid and the S and I terminals are joined together internally so I don't see why I can't wire them together on the new solenoid. The solenoid that was in it has taken a lot of abuse. With the tractor only turning 1/4 turn at a time it and the starter would get really hot. Occasionally the starter would get so hot it would smoke and I would quit.

If the problem is with the battery then I have the same problem with two different batteries. While working on the tractor I have taken a battery out of one of my cars and put in the tractor. Also when I turn the key off the voltage returns to above 12v. I'm also keeping a float charger on the battery all the time now while I'm working on it.

No idea what kind of solenoid you had that would have had S and I joined internally but that is not what you need for your application nor is the one you have on it now suitable the way you have it wired.

If what you say is true in that voltage at the solenoid terminal where you have S and I connected together is only present during cranking then upon releasing the start button or ignition switch there is no voltage.
Yet the engine runs.
Obviously this is because voltage is fed from the ignition switch to the ballast resistor then on to the + terminal of the coil.

So key on = voltage at coil+
I wire connected to coil+ other end connected to S terminal at solenoid along with S wire from start switch.

Albeit a reduced voltage the way you have it connected you have a constant voltage at the solenoid s terminal whenever the ignition is turned on.

This may or may not be enough current to the solenoid coil to pull it into engagement but it could be enough to keep it engaged after you release the start button.
 
The voltage to the resister comes directly off the battery. It's only at start up the I terminal is engaged. The I terminal is there just to give a full 12v to the coil at start up. On a vehicle that doesn't use a coil resister this terminal isn't used at all. This is why this solenoid is missing the I terminal.

I will see if I can post a picture of the cut open solenoid. If I don't have it anymore I think I still have another bad one I can cut open. I cut the thing open to see what was going on and how bad the contact was burned.
 
I thought you could see where the S and I were connected internally but would have to cut it further apart for that. The solenoid is just an electro magnet which just pulls the copper washer down to the contacts. The picture isn't very good but the wire shown on the S terminal just grounds the unit to the base which is now cut off.
a175861.jpg

a175862.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 10:49:46 10/21/17) The voltage to the resister comes directly off the battery. It's only at start up the I terminal is engaged. The I terminal is there just to give a full 12v to the coil at start up. On a vehicle that doesn't use a coil resister this terminal isn't used at all. This is why this solenoid is missing the I terminal.

I will see if I can post a picture of the cut open solenoid. If I don't have it anymore I think I still have another bad one I can cut open. I cut the thing open to see what was going on and how bad the contact was burned.

12v + from battery goes to ignition switch
Ignition switch on sends power to ballast resistor
Ballast resistor sends power to coil+ terminal

Key on = power at coil+

You have a wire we will call I that goes directly from the coil+ to the s terminal on the solenoid.

Therefore any time the key is on power flows from battery to ignition switch to ballast resistor to coil+ then through I wire to S terminal on solenoid.

Draw it out if you need to
Yet better put a meter on it
 
You're right there is two different wires going to the coil. When the key is in the start position activating the starter there is 12v at the coil. The rest of the time it's what ever the resister reduces it to.
 
(quoted from post at 13:47:48 10/21/17) You're right there is two different wires going to the coil. When the key is in the start position activating the starter there is 12v at the coil. The rest of the time it's what ever the resister reduces it to.

Was out in the shop this morning fixing a leak on my dump truck and got to thinking about the wiring on your tractor.

I have more spare parts around than the average parts store so I took a ceramic ballast resistor that had been on a 6 cyl ford and a heavy duty ford style 12 volt starter solenoid.
I ran a wire from a 12 volt battery to the ballast resistor, grounded the solenoid then touched the other wire from the ballast resistor to the S terminal of the solenoid click, click, click.
The line out from The ballast resistor indeed has enough juice to trigger and hold in the solenoid.

Now you never mentioned that your tractor would start cranking as soon as you turn the ignition on to the run position so something must be different.

The coil.

So I took a 12 volt coil and hooked it up parallel with the solenoid, at this stage the wire from the ballast resistor could not provide enough juice to energize the solenoid.

So this means what?

On your tractor engine stopped and points open would be the equivalent of removing the coil from the above test and sufficient power would be present to engage the solenoid and starter.
Once you begin cranking the engine over the points will open and close momentarily applying and removing the required juice to energize the solenoid.

Once the engine has started and is idling at say 500 RPM then theoretically a 4 cylinder tractors distributor is going to be sending 2000 peak pulses a minute through the wire to the solenoid.

What can this do? I did not bother to mock up a test to determine this as the potential for the system to not function as designed has already been established.

Is the solenoid coil just acting as a parallel ballast resistor?
Or is there enough juice in these pulses to keep the solenoid and starter engaged while the engine is running?

Not saying this is the case but is it possible you have a weak or bad starter switch or a poor connection on the wire going to the solenoid that is preventing the flow of sufficient power to the solenoid until it cools off for a while or not at all?

Although I have never come across a solenoid like the first one you had that you said the S and I terminals were linked inside, if you did have one like that then the way you wired the new solenoid would be exactly the same circuit as the old one.

Hence you noticed no change after replacing the solenoid or the starter or the battery.

This would also be consistent with what you said of the engine going a 1/4 turn when you try to restart it hot as the back feed to the solenoid will only have enough juice to engage the solenoid until the points close, unless of course the initial cranking speed is high enough to keep the engine rolling over until the points reopen, re-energize the solenoid, repeat, repeat, repeat ...

I have seen stranger things happen before which is why like I said before, you need to beat every possibility to death and prove things good or bad before moving on to the next thing.
 
On the solenoid the S terminal is shown on the left and the I is on the right. The power comes in on the S terminal and goes out on the I. You see in the picture there is nothing the action of the solenoid makes the S terminal connect the I terminal so they have to be linked. I'll cut the solenoid further open today and see just how S and I are linked. All I know for sure at this point is when 12v is sent to S there is 12v at I for temporary power to make the coil hotter at startup.

As far as the starter goes as long as the power is going from across the main terminals from the battery to the starter that shouldn't be the problem. I have also bypassed the key switch and solenoid altogether and it didn't make a difference.

I dropped one of the starters off at a shop yesterday to have overhauled. They said they thought they would have it fixed in a couple days.
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On the Ford style solenoid that would be appropriate for your application the I terminal should have a flexible strip of copper going to the contact disc.
They are designed this way so the solenoid can be installed with the battery and starter cable on either side.
This way the I terminal is always isolated from voltage regardless of how it is installed except when the solenoid is energized.

The only other circuit variation that comes to mind for this style of 4 terminal solenoid would be much like the one you currently have installed.
On it the large terminals serve the same purpose.
The small terminals one is the S terminal that receives 12 volt when you try to start the engine.
The other terminal is not an I terminal nor are any of the ones in my junk door marked as such on this style, the other small terminal is simply the other end of the coil winding in the solenoid it is isolated from case ground so additional switching of the ground side can be utilized.

Depending on application there could be a neutral start switch, seat switch etc. these switches complete the circuit to supply the ground to the coil when conditions of the design are met.

If S and I were linked internally it would be redundant for the manufacturer to add the extra terminal as one could simply install both wires to the S terminal like you currently have on yours.

The way you have yours right now, if the points in your distributor were to fail in an open condition your engine WILL crank over when the ignition is turned on without pushing the start button.
 
You're right. I cut apart the solenoid and the I terminal has a thin strip of copper running down the inside of the tube where the spring is that pushes the contact rod up.
 
(quoted from post at 19:59:25 10/26/17) You're right. I cut apart the solenoid and the I terminal has a thin strip of copper running down the inside of the tube where the spring is that pushes the contact rod up.

From reading your other posts, you have had some setbacks to deal with but you are making progress with your tractor gremlins.

The starter that you had rebuilt, did the shop indicate to you there were any major problems with it?
Bad armature, bad winding, worn bushings?

Basically did they find anything that was likely to be causing the symptoms you have been experiencing?

Next item being the solenoid you are replacing.
If you have not found one yet any auto parts store should have or can get you a Ford starter solenoid for much less than what your dealership wants.
Standard Ignition part # SS581.
Or you could order one from Yesterday's Tractor part#D2AF11450AA for under $11.00

Ford used this style solenoid from the late 50's into the early 80's, it can handle cranking over a 460 V8 it will be more than adequate for your application.

Let us know what your results are, although it might not feel that way the list of possibilities are getting narrowed down.
 
The way you keep starting new topics all related to the same problem makes it difficult to follow your progress.

In one topic you said regarding the solenoid;

(It looks like it's the right part. I may try one someday but I had already gone back to Napa and got the same one I had been using. I'm not partial to Napa parts anyway but they are the only place in town that has one on the shelf.)

When you say you got the same solenoid as the one you had been using are you referring to Ford style one you originally had or the newer one you purchased from CNH?

The reason I am asking this is that in yet another topic you said regarding the starter;

( I hope it's fixed. I did start it again once and it hesitated a little.)

Being that your previous starters began there path to failure with the same symptoms if you have not corrected the wiring fault of where you had the I wire connected then the days will be numbered for this starter as well.

Primary causes of failed winding on an armature are;
Excessive cranking durations
Starter staying engaged once engine has started.

I would hate to hear two weeks from now that your problem has returned.
 

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