Out of ideas

Stephen Newell

Well-known Member
I've had problems with the starter on my 210B turning the engine over fast enough to start the tractor. I finally burned up the starter. I replaced the starter and it's doing the same thing. Then the starter solenoid fused up to where it wouldn't disconnect so I replaced the solenoid with a heavy duty one. The starter still doesn't turn fast enough unless I remove all four spark plugs. There isn't a problem with the ground or cables and I've tried to start it connected to two batteries. Don't know what else to try. If it didn't have the front loader sitting on the ground I could maybe have a wrecker take it to a mechanic but I can't really afford that right now.
 
Do you have a 12V system and 12V starter??? Your cables could be old and not letting current flow. Try replacing them with new HD cables, and run the ground to the starter frame, not a chassis ground up by the battery box.
Loren
 
The starter might be 6v, I don't know. There isn't any identification on it. The cables are pretty much new. The tractor only has a 100 hours on it since it was refurbished and the tractor is stored inside when not in use. I have tried to supplement the cables with jumper cables and it made no difference. The tractor was converted to a 12V system before I bought it. As far as the ground, I sanded every trace of paint off the starter and engine block when I installed the starter. The negative cable that went to the block I had already done the same and made no difference.
 
Nothing in gear? Hydraulic pump deadheading? Hydraulics all in neutral? I have a 200 and a 310 and they spin like crazy on 12 volts. You wouldn't think you'd get two junk starters.Battery is in good shape? Low voltage is what usually welds the solenoid.
 
do you have the heavy battery cables ? you have resistance someplace. maybe the switch also? check your voltage at starter when cranking. also did you check the batteries voltage to make sure they are good?
 
There is nothing wrong with the gears. I don't understand what you mean pump deadheading. The tractor and hydraulics should be in neutral. Using two batteries making no difference I think they are in good shape. The main battery is only two years old. A volt meter shows the battery being 12.8 volts.
 
The volt meter on the dash shows the voltage dropping considerable while cranking but quickly returns when you turn the key off. The battery cables are at least twice the size of any vehicle I own. With the insulation on them they are about 5/8" in diameter.
 
A load tester is something I don't have. I guess I would remove the battery from the tractor and take it to town. I have tried to start the tractor jumping it off of a running vehicle so I have doubts if the battery is the problem.
 
Sounds like time to test the batteries and at the same time have the starter tested also. Volt reading only say battery has that many volt but that does not cover CCA. Also jumping it does not help if one of the batteries is bad or you have a bad battery cable which can go bad and still look fine. As for the loader depending on the set up that is no big deal and it can be lifted or even pull started if you snake the chain under the bucket to the pull tractor.
 
The pump deadheading would be when the hydraulics need to be flowing through the valve. Try putting the loader in float, or raising it as you try to start it. Just to release any pressure build up. Kind of like watching guys start old John Deeres and turn the steering wheel back and forth as they crank the engine.
 

How does the starter spin when not on the tractor? Have you had the engine running since the refurbish? By refurbish do you mean overhauled? The engine could be tight after the overhaul making it hard to turn over with the starter. Your cylinders could also be dry from trying to start it without success. Try putting a little oil in each spark plug hole. If the cylinders are too dry the engine may not be creating enough compression to get it to fire. The oil will help seal up the piston/cylinder interface, and make the pistons move easier in the cylinders. I've seen quite a few fresh overhauls drag hard on the starter until the engine is broke in. I usually run a freshly overhauled engine run at half throttle for 3-4 hours when they are first started. This will help them loosen up a little. Just make sure you keep an eye on the gauges during that time.
 
The engine will spin fine if I remove the spark plugs. I did have the tractor running and have about 100 hours on it since I refurbished it. The refurbishing though was more cosmetic than mechanical. I didn't do anything internal to the motor. The most I did on it refurbishing the tractor was to split it and replace the clutch. I did get it running once after I put this last starter on it but hasn't started since.
 
At present the motor will only turn maybe 1/2 revolution so I wouldn't be able to work the hydraulics while starting. The front loader and blade attachment on the back are both sitting on the ground so there shouldn't be any hydraulic pressure on it.
 
Underneath the hydraulic control valve for the eagle hitch, you will find a round rod with a tab welded to the front of it.

This rod faces forward. By moving it back and forth, you can disconnect the hydraulic pump from the engine. Do you have a separate front mounted pump for the loader?
 
(quoted from post at 08:54:25 10/14/17) At present the motor will only turn maybe 1/2 revolution so I wouldn't be able to work the hydraulics while starting. The front loader and blade attachment on the back are both sitting on the ground so there shouldn't be any hydraulic pressure on it.


Did you replace the burnt starter with a new one or a used one? I'd run the starter to a starter shop and have it checked. I'd also have my battery checked. You may want to try turning the engine by hand with a wrench to see if it's binding some where in the cycle. There are a number of things, like the hydraulics, that can cause this. Just because the implements are sitting on the ground doesn't mean there isn't a valve stuck in the system. Same thing for the cables, they may look good on the outside and be junk on the inside or at the terminal connections.
 
Do you have at least #1 size cables? Do you have those clamp on battery cable ends at the battery. If you do, take them off and clean the cable. Are you grounded to the body of the the tractor and not just sheet metal? Do you have able long enough to try grounding directly under a starter bolt?
 
Yes the cable is at least #1. The cables are the clamp on and are brass instead of the cheaply lead ones. Both ends of both cables have been cleaned numerous times. It's the first thing I tried. The negative cable is grounded directly to the engine and the positive goes to the start solenoid. I haven't tried to ground the actual cable to the starter and I don't think it's long enough I have run a jumper cable from the negative post to the starter bolt to supplement the ground but it made no difference.
 
Stephen: The voltage dropping considerably when cranking tells the story. The starter is shorting or the battery is junk. 5/8" OD cable is excellent.
 
When the original starter burned up I attempted to take it to a starter shop and have it overhauled. No shop I took it to was able to work on it. It seems to be a rare starter nobody has anymore. Anyway the starter I bought was a used one and it does run, there just seems to be a lack of power or the engine is in some kind of bind.

I wouldn't know how to check to see if a valve is stuck or not. The control mechanism on the loader is in a neutral position.

I think if the cables were bad jumper cables would make a little difference. I know they can't substitute for the battery cables but they should supplement the deficiency at least some.
 
I found the rod and worked it back and forth and it returned to the neutral position but it didn't make any difference. I'm not sure but I think there is a separate pump for the loader. It has an external return reservoir for the fluid. This picture shows the reservoir before I put the loader back on.
a175053.jpg
 
I had a 226 allis engine became a hard starter and the problem was the valves needed adjusting and the timing.

The guys commenting all seem to be covering the basic issue of starters and wires.

I do have one question; If you have a volt meter hook up the meter on the battery terminals and then try to start the tractor. If the voltage drops below 9.5 volts it either the starter dragging or the battery is weak if its a 12 volt system I think the voltage should be above 4.5 volts if its a 6 volt system
 
(quoted from post at 23:14:18 10/13/17) I've had problems with the starter on my 210B turning the engine over fast enough to start the tractor. I finally burned up the starter. I replaced the starter and it's doing the same thing. Then the starter solenoid fused up to where it wouldn't disconnect so I replaced the solenoid with a heavy duty one. The starter still doesn't turn fast enough unless I remove all four spark plugs. There isn't a problem with the ground or cables and I've tried to start it connected to two batteries. Don't know what else to try. If it didn't have the front loader sitting on the ground I could maybe have a wrecker take it to a mechanic but I can't really afford that right now.[/quot

I'm starting to think that your starter might be binding. Try loosening the mounting bolts so the starter can move a little while you crank it. You might need to shim the starter to make it work. Loosening the mounting bolts will free up the binding if that is your trouble.
 
(quoted from post at 23:14:18 10/13/17) I've had problems with the starter on my 210B turning the engine over fast enough to start the tractor. I finally burned up the starter. I replaced the starter and it's doing the same thing. Then the starter solenoid fused up to where it wouldn't disconnect so I replaced the solenoid with a heavy duty one. The starter still doesn't turn fast enough unless I remove all four spark plugs. There isn't a problem with the ground or cables and I've tried to start it connected to two batteries. Don't know what else to try. If it didn't have the front loader sitting on the ground I could maybe have a wrecker take it to a mechanic but I can't really afford that right now.

Have you tried putting jumper cables on a running vehicle, then hook the ground to the tractor frame, then touch the positive clamp to the starter stud? This eill put full 12v to the starter without going through the tractors battery.
 
I changed the battery and put a newer battery out of our car and it's doing the same thing. Before changing the battery I tried to start it and it started immediately. I shut it off and let it sit for a few seconds and tried to start it again and the motor would barely turn. With the new battery after several tries it started once. The voltage is still dropping while I'm cranking. The other starter did the same thing.
 
Have you tried jumping it with 12 volts right at the starter? I assume that the engine can be turned over by hand without much effort?
 
I believe you said the tractor was split and clutch replaced. I would suggest something on flywheel or with clutch binding. possibly internal main clutch and or pto clutch somehow binding. could possibly flywheel not fitting proper causing starter to bind.
 
It has a 12V system in it so I've only tried to start it with 12v. As for turning the engine over by hand I don't think I could turn it with a breaker bar.
 
This tractor of mine doesn't have a PTO. Someone suggested the starter may be binding against the flywheel and may need shems. This is something I haven't tried yet and will do tomorrow if it doesn't rain but there is 80% chance of rain tomorrow so I may not get the chance.
 
(quoted from post at 18:43:55 10/14/17) It has a 12V system in it so I've only tried to start it with 12v. As for turning the engine over by hand I don't think I could turn it with a breaker bar.
You can't turn it with a breaker bar? Because it's that stiff, or you can't get a breaker bar on it? If it's that hard to turn, try it without the spark plugs. It should be smooth and easy, turn it with an 8" ratchet no problems. If not you can quit looking for electrical problems and start tearing down the tractor. Since you were in the clutch area, I'd look there first.
 
I have a volt meter but haven't put it on the battery when starting. I've just been using the volt gauge on the dash which goes to 8v when starting. 8v is as low as the gauge goes so I don't know exactly how low it goes.
 
I'm just guessing about the breaker bar. I certainly can't turn the engine by hand with the spark plugs in it. Anyway I couldn't be sure about the breaker bar without taking all the sheetmetal off the front of the tractor.

As far as the clutch I don't believe it cranks any harder after I replace the clutch. This is something I've been living with ever since I've owned the tractor. It's just when I first got the tractor there was a rear seal issue with the engine and it soaked the clutch plate with oil and slipped.
 

Has this been a problem since you owned the tractor, or did it show up after you split the tractor to clean up the clutch? Do you have a hand crank for the tractor? I ask, becsuse I'd like to know if engine turns freely when using the hand crank. You also stated that you bought a used starter after the first one crapped out on you. There might be a possibility that the used starter is defective. Can you disassemble the starter to check for problems? Could be the bushings are worn enough to cause the armature to drag on the field coil pucks. The pucks are what holds the field coils to the inside of the starter barrel. You could also check to see if anything is shorting out inside the starter.
 
Stephen: Start a new thread, this one is getting long. Post pictures of the loader & plumbing, and valving. Starter could be bad, but the fact that it started, you shut it off & won't easily turn back over is curious.
 
If it spins over good with spark plugs out, how does it spin with the spark plugs in, but no power to the coil? If it spins over better without power to the coil than with power the timing is to fast.
 
When I started testing the starter without the plugs I pulled the coil wire so I don't know anything about the ignition. Even with one spark plug in the motor will maybe turn one revolution and stop completely.
 
This problem has been there since I've owned the tractor but is getting steadily worse. I had sent the original starter off once to have it refurbished but I don't think they did much. To me the brushes look too worn for about 100 hours of use.

I don't have a hand crank but when I get the chance I will pull the sheetmetal off the front and see just how stiff the motor is. I never knew the engine should turn easier than a car motor.

I attempted to take the original starter apart and just clean it but when I put it back together it won't work at all, not even on the bench. I'm more than reluctant to take this last starter apart. Anyway I've never worked on a starter before so I don't know what to look for. If it comes down to thinking the starter is bad I now have the name of someone to take it to. Another option is I found a starter on Tractor Supply's web site I think might work. I just need to rule out all other possibilities before getting a third starter.
 
(quoted from post at 13:47:19 10/16/17) When I started testing the starter without the plugs I pulled the coil wire so I don't know anything about the ignition. Even with one spark plug in the motor will maybe turn one revolution and stop completely.

I think DKase is on to something. The timing might be advanced too far. Do you know how to check the ignition timing?
 
Good idea to start another thread but I need to catch up. There were a few suggestions I haven't been able to try yet.
 
The way the tractor is made you can't really use a timing light without taking all the sheet metal off the front. I don't know about the timing anyway. Most of the time the fan blade will only turn about 10" before it comes to a complete stop. When it does start it starts instantly. You can't even hear the starter run. I think if the timing was very far off I don't think it would do that.
 
Stephen, Your timing marks should be on the flywheel. Should be a timing hole with a dust cap on the bell housing. Pry the cap off.

Joe
a175414.jpg
 
Your distributor is not installed in the factory attitude although that can be compensated for to arrive at the correct timing. I agree with the DKase and L.Fure you should check the timing with a light.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 01:53:58 10/17/17) The way the tractor is made you can't really use a timing light without taking all the sheet metal off the front. I don't know about the timing anyway. Most of the time the fan blade will only turn about 10" before it comes to a complete stop. When it does start it starts instantly. You can't even hear the starter run. I think if the timing was very far off I don't think it would do that.

You can time an engine without a timing light. I'm to tired and foggy in the head right now to give you clear instructions on how to static time your tractor. Maybe someone smarter can jump in and explain it better than I'd be able to right now.
 
(quoted from post at 03:50:36 10/17/17) If I can find the access which plug on that tractor is #1

The plug nearest the radiator is #1.

L.Fure is referring to a static set where, flywheel is on the ignition timing, you turn the distributer head until the points just start opening for #1.

You're having enough problems w/o doing a ballpark timing like that. Borrow or rent a timing light if you don't have one and do it right. Time at idle 400 -500 rpm, low enough to prevent distributer advance.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 04:14:43 10/17/17)
(quoted from post at 03:50:36 10/17/17) If I can find the access which plug on that tractor is #1

The plug nearest the radiator is #1.

L.Fure is referring to a static set where, flywheel is on the ignition timing, you turn the distributer head until the points just start opening for #1.

You're having enough problems w/o doing a ballpark timing like that. Borrow or rent a timing light if you don't have one and do it right. Time at idle 400 -500 rpm, low enough to prevent distributer advance.

Joe

I figured Stephan could get the timing closer to the ball park by static timing the engine first. It might help out with getting it to turn over and start better than it does now. He can make final adjustments after he gets it running.

What do you think, Stephan, are you ready to give it a try?
 
I got the tractor running and put a timing light on it with using the plug at the very front of the tractor as the #1 plug and through the hole I'm just seeing what looks like numbers stamped in the wheel. There is no line like there is on a car. I rotated the distributor both directions as far as I could without stalling the tractor and there is no line, just the numbers.
 
(quoted from post at 17:55:24 10/17/17) I got the tractor running and put a timing light on it with using the plug at the very front of the tractor as the #1 plug and through the hole I'm just seeing what looks like numbers stamped in the wheel. There is no line like there is on a car. I rotated the distributor both directions as far as I could without stalling the tractor and there is no line, just the numbers.

What kind of a timing light do you have, A modern advance style will make your job much easier. If I were you I would remove #1 plug and very carefully turn the engine till the piston gets close to TDC then look carefully in the timing hole and see if yo can locate a TDC scribe line, once you find it take a drill with a 1/4 inch bit and put a small drilling mark on the flywheel at TDC, then put a dab of white paint on it. Once you have that if you have a advance light you can set that at the desired running timing and turn the distributor till the light flashes at the white mark nlock er down
 
(quoted from post at 22:55:24 10/17/17) I got the tractor running and put a timing light on it with using the plug at the very front of the tractor as the #1 plug and through the hole I'm just seeing what looks like numbers stamped in the wheel. There is no line like there is on a car. I rotated the distributor both directions as far as I could without stalling the tractor and there is no line, just the numbers.

The numbers you are seeing are degree marks. According to the I&T repair manual these are the numbers you need to set the timing at. 0 degrees @ 275rpm. 1 degree @ 300rpm. 8 degrees @ 475rpm. 12 degrees @ 800rpm. 13 degrees at 875rpm. Your static timing mark is DC. You should static time the distributor before you use the timing light to fine tune the timing with your light. Bring number one piston up on the compression stroke, then line the DC mark with the pointer on the side of the hole. Next you will have to hook an ohm meter or a test light to the points. Do not turn on the ignition if you use an ohm meter. After to have either hooked up turn the distributor until the needle on the ohm meter moves, or the light begins to flicker. Tighten the distributor clamp and see if the engine will start easier.
 
"The numbers you are seeing are degree marks. According to the I&T repair manual these are the numbers you need to set the timing at. 0 degrees @ 275rpm. 1 degree @ 300rpm. 8 degrees @ 475rpm. 12 degrees @ 800rpm. 13 degrees at 875rpm. Your static timing mark is DC."

It would be helpful if you clarify the rpm you cite above is distributor rpm, not engine rpm.

0 degs @ distributor 275 rpm equals 0 degs @ 550 engine rpm, etc. The rest of the deg/rpm listed has no effect in initial distributor timer. You just want to time the engine at a lower rpm than the distributor starts advancing. I know from experience the various IAD6003 distributors used on VA, 200B, 300/300B, 400B in decent shape begin advance at 570 engine rpm to slightly higher.

Induction lights are relatively cheap and you can time this engine with the pickup on #1 or #4 wire or the coil wire. Coil wire is the best as the multiple flashes light up the hole making it easier to locate and align the pointer to the flywheel mark. Any variation between #1 and #4 firing is engine/dist wear.

Joe
 
This would help as I have no way to determine engine speed. Another issue is I think the inspection hole is suppose to have a needle or something to align with the numbers and my tractor has nothing.
 
(quoted from post at 01:57:31 10/18/17) This would help as I have no way to determine engine speed. Another issue is I think the inspection hole is suppose to have a needle or something to align with the numbers and my tractor has nothing.

I think in that case probably be best to follow L.Fure's advice and do a static set.

If you want to give the light one more try warm up the engine good, slowly drop the rpm to the lowest it will continue to run fairly smooth.

Put the light pickup on the coil wire. That will give you 2 flashes in the timing hole each engine rpm instead of one flash every 2 engine rpm if you were using the pickup on #1 or #4 plug wire.

Pickup on the coil wire #1 & #4 will flash on the timing mark when you locate it. #2 & 3 just flash on the flywheel where there are no marks, you probably won't be aware of them flashing but they help light up the hole.

The flywheel turns CCW so the lowest mark will likely be the DC mark. The pointer is easily broken off or pulled out of the socket. Just use the center of the hole as the pointer, maybe draw a line on the side of the hole as an indicator.

Joe
 
(quoted from post at 01:46:34 10/18/17) "The numbers you are seeing are degree marks. According to the I&T repair manual these are the numbers you need to set the timing at. 0 degrees @ 275rpm. 1 degree @ 300rpm. 8 degrees @ 475rpm. 12 degrees @ 800rpm. 13 degrees at 875rpm. Your static timing mark is DC."

It would be helpful if you clarify the rpm you cite above is distributor rpm, not engine rpm.

0 degs @ distributor 275 rpm equals 0 degs @ 550 engine rpm, etc. The rest of the deg/rpm listed has no effect in initial distributor timer. You just want to time the engine at a lower rpm than the distributor starts advancing. I know from experience the various IAD6003 distributors used on VA, 200B, 300/300B, 400B in decent shape begin advance at 570 engine rpm to slightly higher.

Induction lights are relatively cheap and you can time this engine with the pickup on #1 or #4 wire or the coil wire. Coil wire is the best as the multiple flashes light up the hole making it easier to locate and align the pointer to the flywheel mark. Any variation between #1 and #4 firing is engine/dist wear.

Joe

I see your point. I'd think if Stephen static timed the engine it should help the engine turn over easier, if the timing was the problem. At least that could be eliminated from the list so we can move on.
 

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