Allis WC engine rebuild

Hi
I've started to rebuild the motor on my WC and after installing the sleeves and the rings,pistons,rod and main bearings I go back and was looking at the sleeves and now notice the they are sticking up out of the block by roughly .010 -.015, while installing them I cleaned everything really well and even honed the area for the O-rings, everything went together well, and at first thought I done a good job on installing the sleeves but after looking at it a second time I'm afraid that this "projection might interfere with sealing the head gasket.
I am worried about nothing or should I go back and tear it apart and pull the sleeves to try to "reseat" them?
thanks!
Bushnellman
 
Your sleeve standout should only be .002-.004 from the block deck. .010 would be too much. I think you'd have trouble getting the headgasket to seal and have oil and water leaks.

Often a little buildup gets into the counterbore and keeps the sleeves from fully seating. May need to scrape with a razor blade to be sure they are clean. test fit all the sleeves with no orings. You should be able to rotate all of the sleeves in the block and measure your standout. If they are still too high after you're sure the counter bore is clean, then you will need to have the block decked and recut the counterbores. I have noticed that some aftermarket Allis sleeves have a .002 thicker flanges than the originals.
 
THANKS! Allis Dave
I think I knew the answer but wasn't sure so I waited before tearing it apart!
That head gasket looks like it could cover a lot of "flaws" as thick as it is!
Thanks again!
 
Use four 1/2" bolts and big diameter flat washers to squeeze them down where they belong!!! You must have these retaining bolts/washers holding things in place up to the point of installing the cylinder head.
 
so I went ahead and tore it all back down and am in the process of cleaning up the bore,there was carbon in there that I didn't get out the first cleaning, after getting that out,(ive got 2 done) they seem to set down a little better but what seems strange, and goes beyond common logic is I use a .004 feeler gauge to compare the 2 surfaces on half the diameter of the sleeve I have approximately .003-.004" and the other maybe closer to .005???
I think these old fingers are messing with me!
but they are setting farther down in the "pocket"
 
I had a old friend he use to build shims to put under the sleeve so it would stand up higher. I am serious, he claimed if he didn't do it, that anti freeze would squirt out the gasket area side ways. I dont claim to be a Allis mechanic, but he was a machinist and a mechanic.
 
The shim thing is common place on a Cummins when you have cut the counter bore. Wouldn't scare me on an allis
assuming you had gone through the procedure but I've never heard of one of these lasting long enough with that
much pressures (like an 855 Cummins) to cause the counterbore to need to be recut. What happens is the liner will
work up and down on a microscopic level causing the counter bore to be worn and it will beme unlevel. You recut it
and it will level the block but you have to shim it to put it back in spec. If its to short the head gasket will
leak. If its too tall it will break the liner but as I said this happens in a diesel usally with a million or two
miles on them.
 
(quoted from post at 00:33:19 01/26/17) so I went ahead and tore it all back down and am in the process of cleaning up the bore,there was carbon in there that I didn't get out the first cleaning, after getting that out,(ive got 2 done) they seem to set down a little better but what seems strange, and goes beyond common logic is I use a .004 feeler gauge to compare the 2 surfaces on half the diameter of the sleeve I have approximately .003-.004" and the other maybe closer to .005???
I think these old fingers are messing with me!
but they are setting farther down in the "pocket"

LOL you may have old fingers but I have young inexperienced ones!
I just went through this on my WD45 this summer. I bought a straight edge had variation of .001-.004 standout over the whole block. I think my 24" straight edge was only accurate to .002 so nothing's perfect. Over time things shift, wear, and rust. I think you'd be fine in that range. I wanted to deck the block so it'd be perfect but didn't want to pay $400 for it.

Listen to Doc. I bolted mine down too and didn't remove the bolts until I installed the head. You'll want to spray some copper coat on the block side of the head gasket and have the head resurfaced.
 
Thanks again -you know my OCD comes into play when I do these types of projects and I find myself spending time and money on some out of this world techniques to get what I think I need to find out I was just spinning my wheels!
I realize that we are not talking all kinds of pressure here but I do want it done right. I understand your approach with the copper coat just to maybe build up the uneven areas...I didn't know about copper coat until I googled it, I thought of perma gasket LOL!
I'm going to get the sleeves down the best I can and go with it, I'm pretty sure I'll be okay!??
Is that copper coat expensive?
 
It's only like $10 for a can. It's copper head gasket sealer and seals up all those little imperfections.
What I actually did on mine, I'm still not sure if it was right or wrong but Dr. Allis recommended it, was I got some hi-temp red RTV sealer and put a very thin bead around all of the oil, pushrod, and coolant galleys then smoothed it out with my finger to make sure it wasn't going to be oozy. I hoped that would help keep all the liquids in their place. I see a lot of these motors seeping oil at the pushrods where there's only like 1/4" of gasket between the galley and the edge of the block. I suppose it probably doesn't hurt seeping a little oil there, but it looks bad.
 
I think I will follow those same "precautions" it only seems to make sense...I am trying to do this the way the original guys did, although this motor has been reworked before. And for whatever reasons the head gasket was replaced a second time(did it leak?) and then it was let set for like 20 years, I took it over and started from scratch, found out the sleeves were badly grooved from the wrist pins and now I see that there is a proper way to install these pins to the connecting rod to avoid exactly that, It was my Grandfathers tractor, then my dads we use it to run a sawmill that's circa 1900 in northern Wisconsin, cool manure!!
 
Before there was copper coat my guys used aluminum paint which i had done with used head gaskets. Yep I have reused head gaskets before if they where 100% metal but I am not recommending you do so. I used the paint and used head gasket when I built my Farmall BA just to see if it could be done and it worked and I used it every year to cut hay with
 
well I got the sleeves to set down further and to the point I'm happy with it, thanks for the help!
I went ahead and put it all back together and went on to put in the connecting bearings and torqued everything down then I tried to roll the crank over and it seems as if its a little too tight!!?
it seemed fine prior to adding connecting bearings so Ill trouble shoot by loosening the connecting bearings 1 at a time...Question the connecting bearings have that tab on each side (rod and cap)and ive got those in right but are the 2 tabs rod/cap suppose to be on the same side when the cap goes on the crank? or should they be opposite?
each rod and cap were marked with a punch to id each one 1 through 4 on a previous rebuild I made sure that those were on the same side(cam side) when I installed them
I believe putting those caps on backwards will cause problems , am I correct there?
could the previous rebuilder have marked them wrong?
 
Good work!
I really can't remember which way they go, I think they are stamped at the factory with numbers on the side and you match up the numbers. You said earlier you figured out the correct way to install the wrist pins to not gouge the sleeve. Make sure too that the wrist pin lock pins are oriented the correct direction. I think they are supposed to be on the cam side.

More likely the problem is shims. From the factory, Mains AND rods are shimmed on a WC. later with either WD's or WD45's, the did away with the rod shims. You'll need to plastigauge every single bearing to make sure you're shimmed correctly. I believe you want to be at .002-.004.
With a fresh grind and new bearings on the mains you should start with a .010 shim pack to achieve the correct clearance. I factory shim pack has 4 .0025 shim to equal .010. I have gotten shim packs before though that only contain one think .010 shim. I think the rods work the same but I've never done shimmed rods. It's also possible someone recut the rods to eliminate shims. Don't torque down the bearings without shims and stretch the caps!

My mains were at .003-.004 new and I only had one big .010 shim so I made some .008 and.009 shims at work and got them into the .002-.003 range.

I'll try to elaborate more if you're not familiar with the process.
 
thanks again for the reply!
You know I took out rod bearings that were just bad enough to replace (pitted not worn), my brother had started that rebuild about 20 years ago and I think all he had done was rod bearings and head gasket, a lot of time has passed and he wasn't sure what he had done. Its obvious that he dropped the pan and those bearings would not have been that hard to change, while the engine was still in tractor. The thing is he was surprised when I told him the crank had been ground previously and the crank was stamped M=20 and R=20 so I bought .020 rod and main bearings for the rebuild, I measured journals on crank to satisfy my OCD and plasti gauged the mains and put back the .010 shims for the crank. before putting in the rod bearings crank rolled over smooth and easy. But I don't remember how "tight" it was before I disassembled it. I am saying this because if my brother had bought either .010 rod bearings or even original he would have never ran into the problem of the crank being too tight when tried to roll the crank over back then( if in fact he ever did)

I have already torqued the rod bearings to spec, how will I know if I've stretched those bearings? stretch marks? lol
I guess plasti gauge is the only way to find out if I need to add shims ( and no there were none when I disassembled it)
Wow I can babble with the best of them! Thanks
 
If you babble longer, I must babble even longer HA
Looks for those stretch marks, if you can't see them then you are good! I tightened my mains once with no shims and didn't stretch them. I had my machine shop check mine. I'm not that good

Do you still have the old bearings that you took out? They are usually stamped with the size on the back.

Steiners sells shims now if you need them, buy they only come in shim packs with 2 .004 shims, not enough for .010. AGCO still sells them too. Sandy Lake implement stocks them. If you pull out too many shims your supposed to file the bearing inserts a certain amount to get good bearing mating or crush. I never had to.
 

Well, if you have not dropped the sleeves in Permanently, I WOULD...:::::::

Pull them out ( If you did not use Non-Hardening Permatex on the O-ring area AND entire floor of the water Jacket..

Reason being: The blocks sometimes develop a crack between the sleeved that does NO harm, but does allow enough coolant to get into the oil to make it turn Milky in color..

If you do this, Lay it on good and thick and then forget about it..!!
 

It is not all that uncommon for the head gasket to seep on the sparkplug side for a while..

Usually stops after the Re-Torque..
 
Well I found the reason for my "tightness" on my rod bearings
I should have mentioned that I stripped one of my rod bearing bolts and thought I was good just replacing it with a hex head , hardened bolt. NOT! this bolt must cause a different angle on the cap as it's tightened down, I also found that my caps were on backwards too so 2 screw ups there.
I've gone through the regular search's to find a new bolt to no avail' I have found connecting rods on eBay that say they are for a WD but they have the Crown nylon nuts on them, mine are drilled for cotter pin...I am concerned the weight will be different, I also found connecting rods for a Allis B and they look identical to the bolts I have but I wonder if the size is different( length?)
I am ordering a parts list catalog!
I am contemplating using a cap head bolt and checking it's weight against the original, any input would be appreciated
Thanks in advance!
 
AGCO still sells those rod bolts and castled nuts. I've bought them before. Get the right ones and don't try to use a standard bolt.

When I took apart my WD45, I found that someone had replaced one of the original 7/16 rod bolts with a 3/8's bolt. It ran that way for many years, but I'm glad I fixed it correctly.
 
I agree would just as soon do it the right way, but I cannot figure out that AGCO website, to order this bolt. I'm in contact with a guy from about 50 miles from me that has a bunch of used stuff including the bolt...all I know to go by is the number on the rod of U3988, it seems he wants to get rid of a bunch of stuff so for about $100 I can get well I think a head, crank 3 pistons,rods and caps and a bunch of stuff that looks good on a shelf but I probably wont have a need for, my garage is full of such stuff...need a fiberglass shower stall? ha ha
can I ask for some help with that AGCO website?
And all this because I wasn't careful enough tightening these bolts the RIGHT way!
 
cracks at the top cause no problem because the head gasket will seal them up along as the desk is still flat.

I'm don't 100% get what bushhog papa is saying, but don't but any gasket sealer on the oring area of the bottom web. As long as the surface is good (smooth and not cracked) just the oring will seal on their own as intended.

For the parts list:
Follow the link
click "view books" to login as guest
In the search by model field type in WC and click search
Clock the link that says "WC/WF tractor"
Then you can click on the contents to search through different part pages.

Heck, while I'm in there...

bolt 70224620
nut 70915652

There are for the newer style like the WD45's used. They use a lock nut instead of the castled nut and cotter key. I would buy a pair so both bolts on the pushrod would match because there is a different torque spec for the lock and castle nuts.
 
.
the area around the o ring surface is fine I "lubed the o rings up with some silicone and slid them in just fine
I followed your directions to the website and it worked just fine I just had to be patient enough for the page to fill in slow- as heck!
So I found the parts list and duplicated your numbers just to get a feel of the site...this will be a great resource going forward thanks!
Now I'm curious how to order the parts, do I do that through the same website? I went to find a dealership and the site directed me to a phone number that was disconnected. LOL all this for a nut and bolt!
 
You have to order parts from an AGCO dealer. If you don't have a local one nearby I would lookup Sandy Lake implement. They are an old dealer that works a lot with these older parts. Many of the newer dealers won't know what you're talking about. Sandy lake will ship the parts to you and probably even have a few used cotter pin style bolts they would sell you if you ask them.
 
okay I got a place to order them and they are $32 for bolt and $5 for the nut.
yes could I get those numbers you spoke of! is there a way to do it so its not posted here? or does it matter?
thanks again
 
I figure up how to get an email button to show up in my posts. Use it to send me an email and I'll send you the numbers. I don't like posting email addresses or phone numbers online. too much spamming.
 
(quoted from post at 06:05:48 02/01/17) I figure up how to get an email button to show up in my posts. Use it to send me an email and I'll send you the numbers. I don't like posting email addresses or phone numbers online. too much spamming.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!
 


While I'm here...I have a couple of radiators for that WC and I'm wondering how I can clean them, I know you used to be able to clean them for cars, I think we called boiling them out? and I was looking to pressure test it, I suppose the same as always, you know pressurize it but do I have to be careful of how much pressure?
 
I got your email message, but it didn't include your email address. Add your email address to the message next time and I'll send you an email.

I don't think the WC radiators had pressurized caps so I doubt they were pressurized at all. The WD45's and such ad pressurized caps that were something like 5PSI. I would go above that. I would take it to a radiator shop and have it checked, but I don't know much about radiator repair.
 
45077.jpg
 

For what ever reason ( we always thought it was from stalling while under heavy load or a HOT piston stopping at the bottom of the stroke that would cause the Bottom Web between the cylinders to crack...

That is sometimes used as a reason the scrape a Block or at least send it in to be "Pinned and Resistence Welded...

THAT IS an option but an old active AC Mechanic told me ( Pour in the Thick Paint from the borrom of a Paint can and it will never leak..

While that was good advice, I have gone the next logical step and recommend the "O-Rong" and all of the lower Coolant area be coated with Non-hardeneing Permatex to insure there WONT be any problem with oil seeping into the oil because of a small crack between the cylinders at the bottom..

It is mighty GOOD insurance and I advise it....too many times a fella moans about "Milky-looking Oil" and it only means doing just what I suggest here..!!

Coat it GOOD, around every sleeve, use it to install every sleeve.

Will nor hurt anything anyway...

NOW, one more thing, lay a coat of permatex on the FRONT of the Front Cylinder Sleeve....!!!

The Front side of that cylinder is exposed to the coolest incoming coolant and WILL WEAR the cylinder toward the FRONT,,,

A coat on the front of that sleeve, behind the water pump will help with that..

EVERY inline 4 or 6 cylinder engine does the same thing...the Front cylinder wears toward the front ( COOLEST Coolant)..
 
well is there any way to know weather the radiator was pressurized or not?, or could the 2 different caps be used interchangeable . If I remember neither wc I have- had a cap on the radiator it was just open so that would just be gravity?
I was just curious how there was any circulation or is it just the water pump moving it around
the radiators I have look very fragile and I wanna take caution with what ever I do it would expensive to replace and these that I have- have the original look to them...if you know what I mean
 
(quoted from post at 16:29:17 02/02/17) well is there any way to know weather the radiator was pressurized or not?, or could the 2 different caps be used interchangeable . If I remember neither wc I have- had a cap on the radiator it was just open so that would just be gravity?
I was just curious how there was any circulation or is it just the water pump moving it around
the radiators I have look very fragile and I wanna take caution with what ever I do it would expensive to replace and these that I have- have the original look to them...if you know what I mean
I wasn't thinking of how that radiator works when I posted this, water pump pulls (or pushes) from bottom of radiator and flows through head to top of radiator, this brain flu is getting to me!!! lol
 
I'm really curious about this one!
I have been cleaning parts and started with the oil pan. For what ever reason I have 2 drain ports on this oil pan, I tried to post pics but failed so far, but there is a second port on the side on the oil pan identical size as the bottom drain plug, but this one is in the side of the pan 2-1/2" from the bottom( doesn't look to be in the oil reserve level) and it had a copper tubing fitting in it , I did not take this apart. What was this for? any ideas? thanks

Ill contact family members to see what they can tell me
 
If you go to that AGCO site that I linked to previously and look up oil sump for the WC, you can see that there may be an additional one or even two plugs on the side. If the engine was originally dual fuel with kerosene, the center one may have even been fitted with a drain cock and it seems that I may have read that this allowed to drain off any kero that may have collected in the bottom of the pan.
Might the other plug in the side been meant to accommodate the base of a power unit? I sure don't know; before my time.
I can tell you that according to my 1951 WD manual, the plug in the side of the pan, near the center, was standard before engine #274626
 
next thing on the list!
How do I go about changing out the camshaft bearings? there seems to be some common sense approaches but could I get some input from someone who has done it
I think I should go with undersized bushings, right?
 
I see what you are saying Stu, none of my family members seem to remember anything about it, so not a big deal,eh.
 
I had the machine shop change my cam bearings. You'll have to do some measuring to know if you need undersized or not. Typically the cam doesn't wear much and may not need undersized bearings. Only some measuring will tell.

I don't think they're that hard to change. Make sure your oil holes are lined up. I think I've seen somewhere about putting them in the freezer to help.
 
(quoted from post at 06:10:43 02/07/17) I had the machine shop change my cam bearings. You'll have to do some measuring to know if you need undersized or not. Typically the cam doesn't wear much and may not need undersized bearings. Only some measuring will tell.

I don't think they're that hard to change. Make sure your oil holes are lined up. I think I've seen somewhere about putting them in the freezer to help.

I'm thinking that I messed up in my measurements and the original bearings will work fine, I was using a cheap pair of calipers to measure...you get what you pay for!
 
(quoted from post at 18:08:59 02/06/17) next thing on the list!
How do I go about changing out the camshaft bearings? there seems to be some common sense approaches but could I get some input from someone who has done it
I think I should go with undersized bushings, right?

I tapped the bushings/bearings out ever so gently with a small punch and hammer ,piece of cake no damage done, ordered the bearing set should be a few days
 
Well I was waiting around for parts, cam bearings and connecting rod bolts and needed something to do so I started looking at the head and manifold. Damn these look rough!
First found a bent pushrod and the associated valve was stuck, could tap on the valve from the top and it would move down but not retract it is really tight!
took off the manifold and found it nearly plugged with rust and debris, would not have been a pretty site to try and start engine with all that. Good thing manifold bolts came loose without breaking, the cover on manifold was another story, let it soak over night with penetrating fluid and was able to get 3 out of 4 nuts to come off, the fourth will need to be drilled out, the whole chamber was nearly filled with exotic material- oh well it has cleaned up pretty well! A little TLC and it will be good to go.
I started looking at the head, thinking that all the parts I need will be in a valve train rebuild kit I took the springs off, 1 broken spring(different cylinder), I was able to save all the retaining clips, but lost at least 1 maybe 2 of the little round "C" retaining clips,that came from around the valve stem holding retaining clips, I hope I can replace these! Do these come with the rebuild kit?
So ,anyways got the valves out without much effort, well a little effort on the stuck one put nothing absurd, lightly tapped it with a punch to get it to go through guide, I mention this because I cannot see this corrosion in the guide causing the bent pushrod.

questions:
How do I remove(or do I) the valve guides from the head?
I need at least 1 spring and will measure the length tomorrow of the others , but I think I might as well go with the valve train kit and replace all the components , about $150.
Question #2 does this valve train kit give me everything I need to redo this head- or am in deep $%#%^ for loosing those tiny clips? Wow!

I am going to make a few phone calls tomorrow to see if I can find a machine shop to work on the head, and maybe the exhaust/intake manifold, Oh yea, what I call valve seats in the head are really rough looking and I see something called a intake and exhaust seat in the exploded view for the valve train from the AGCO parts book, I am confused is there a separate part for the valve to seat into that goes into the casting of the head or is this just ground by the machine shop? What all should I have the machine shop do, resurface the head I presume, and clean up these seats?
You know this project has gone deeper then I expected, but it is a labor of love, I spend a lot of time thinking of my Dad and Grandpa...I want to thank you in advance for your help in my endeavor!
bushnellman
 
Hello again,
The valve train kit should contain everything that you need. New valves, springs, and retainers. I'm not familiar with the "C" clip you're talking about, but the new kit comes with all the retainers you need.

The guides and seats are something a machine shop should do, unless you're a machinist. The shop will be able to tell you is the seats can just be ground or are too bad and need replaced. He will also purchase and install the correct guides if you need them. Most likely The block side of the head will need planed back flat. They tend to warp slightly after awhile. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have him make a quick pass on the valve cover side as well to clean it up good. It's also possible that the manifold an/or manifold side of the head is out of flat too, causing the manifold to not seal properly. I had both of these machined on mine as well. One thing to watch is that if you take too much off the manifold or side of the head, you can make it so the carb linkage hits the block.
Be prepared to possibly have a $400 bill when finished.
 
Hi well I've found a machine shop to do the valve job for me and I want to buy the parts from YT, but I'm curious about a couple things, the overhaul kit has valves, springs, guides and retainers and the valve service kit has springs, guides and locks, (buy the valves separate)
What is the difference between retainers and locks? Are they the same thing?
Can my old valves be reworked, and not buy new valves?
or should I just replace valves with new?
How do I tell if my original valves are any good?
 
retainers and locks same thing. Best thing would be to Post pictures of the valves include side view the guys can tell ya if their any good. Margin is important if the edges are sharp or below the minimun their no good.
45600.jpg
45601.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 15:14:48 02/13/17) retainers and locks same thing. Best thing would be to Post pictures of the valves include side view the guys can tell ya if their any good. Margin is important if the edges are sharp or below the minimun their no good.
45600.jpg
45601.jpg
I went ahead and ordered the valve train rebuild kit which includes new valves, I started to question myself because of the wide range in prices. I am a little on the distrustful side, so had to verify I was getting everything I needed. My old valves look like they have lived their life so I'm thinking new is the best route to go...Thank you for your input...bushnellman
 
Front oil seal
I just went to put in the front crankshaft oil seal that came with my "complete rebuild gasket set" and I cannot get this oil seal to fit it is obviously the wrong seal. I'm going to re order the seal but I'm curious, I took 2 oils seals out of the original front cover, looks as if the previous mechanic just doubled up on the seals since they are about identical, is that a common practice and should I follow suit? I'm disappointed because I'm basically at a stand still
I am expecting to see a metal ring with the rubber "seal" attached that I press into the cover am I correct?
thanks!
 

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