ER kit for 1959 D17?

Rascal 7256

New User
I have a D17 serial #22438-7 which I intend to use on my 20 acre farm for road grading, and field work. I currently have the head off and the pistons are seized.

It has the dished pistons now.

So my question are: Which piston/sleeve set will give me the best horse power?

I see dished and flat top pistons listed for the D17. Are the flat pistons higher compression?

Or should I actually be looking at 170/175 parts?

I see "in frame" kits available. How tough is it to drive the sleeves out of the block "in frame"?
 
I am sure that the flat topped pistons will give you more compression. In the 60's the car mfg's , used dished pistons, so they could use unleaded gas, at a lower octane rating. Maybe Allis did it for poor fuel, I use a hydraulic jack, blocked uo on the floor, with a suitable rod held on the jack center, to press the sleaves out of my WD45, in frame. You have to roll the crank shaft out of the way, each time, and be careful, to not scratch your crank shaft journals.
 
(quoted from post at 21:31:51 02/28/15) I am sure that the flat topped pistons will give you more compression. In the 60's the car mfg's , used dished pistons, so they could use unleaded gas, at a lower octane rating. Maybe Allis did it for poor fuel, I use a hydraulic jack, blocked uo on the floor, with a suitable rod held on the jack center, to press the sleaves out of my WD45, in frame. You have to roll the crank shaft out of the way, each time, and be careful, to not scratch your crank shaft journals.

Roll the crank out of the way??????
That ain't happening. The pistons are seized up tight. I guess we will just have to break her apart and pull the crank to start.

That will give me an excuse to replace the clutch anyway.
 
muric acid and ATF(50/50)and soak good, then use a wooden block and a 2# hammer. You may just get it loose.
 
(quoted from post at 22:41:09 02/28/15) muric acid and ATF(50/50)and soak good, then use a wooden block and a 2# hammer. You may just get it loose.

I soaked the rings for two days with penetrating oil and used a wood block with a 24 oz hammer. So far no movement.

The quest continues.
 
Two days probably isn't enough, and I would use the 50/50 acetone/ diesel fluid as a penetrant. Good luck to you, some never give up, but most likely it will at some point.

As far as the dished pistons, do you think it might have been for using Kerosene (ie distilate fuel?) Allis Chalmers did a lot of those!
David from jax
 
(quoted from post at 22:02:46 02/28/15)
(quoted from post at 21:31:51 02/28/15) I am sure that the flat topped pistons will give you more compression. In the 60's the car mfg's , used dished pistons, so they could use unleaded gas, at a lower octane rating. Maybe Allis did it for poor fuel, I use a hydraulic jack, blocked uo on the floor, with a suitable rod held on the jack center, to press the sleaves out of my WD45, in frame. You have to roll the crank shaft out of the way, each time, and be careful, to not scratch your crank shaft journals.

Roll the crank out of the way??????
That ain't happening. The pistons are seized up tight. I guess we will just have to break her apart and pull the crank to start.

That will give me an excuse to replace the clutch anyway.

Yes, you can roll the crank out of the way, even on a siezed engine. Doing so does require the engine block to be removed from the tractor, then turn the block upside down so you can access the crank, unbolt and remove all of the main caps, lift the crank up just a little, rotate it 90 degrees, and drop it back down. The previously
inaccessible rod bolts will now be right where you can get to them.
 
I hope you say that in jest. If you have the block out and caps loose, you just as well have the crank at a shop getting cleaned up while you pound the sleeves out. But I'm not a reuse stuck parts kind of guy. I go in that far, I'm starting over.
As for which piston is better, I'm not sure. Nebraska test for a WD showed .169 horsepower per cubic inch and the WD45 at .19 horse per cube. The only difference in engine was 5.5 vs 6.45 compression ratio and Power Crater pistons.
You could go 170 or 175 pistons, but then you need to swap back to WD bearings. AGCO dealer you know might work with you on that, otherwise you'd have to buy the "kit" in pieces.
AaronSEIA
 

If you really figure to "Use" it, select a Kit with not over 7.4:1 compression, or you will need expensive higher octane gas..
I used a D-17 4 1/8" kit in my WD-45 (7.2:1) and it is about the "Limit" when at Max Load and needs careful timing settings..
That kit is a big step up from the standard WD-45 and is very noticeable.
The WD-45 and D-17 are not in the same class as a WD, so don't over-look them...!!
Ron.
 

I appreciate the advice. I have read that the D17 was originally 7.25 compression in gasoline, and 8.25 in LP.

Being much more familiar with building automotive engines than tractor engines, I was hoping to run the tractor at 8.25 compression with regular gas for field work.

Not the correct way to go??????
 

Never going to happen...

7.5:1 is about the highest you dare to use in a true "Working" situation, with the engine under a REAL LOAD...
These are Low RPM Lugging engines and are NOT like the Modified "Pulling Tractor" engines with 220 #+ of compression..
At that, Timing will be critical, to avoid detonation..
Gets expensive if you must use Hi-Test Gas in a field tractor..!!
Ron.
 

Okay, Thanks a bunch for the help.

I will order the dished pistons from Yesterday's Tractors as soon as I get the crank out and find out which bearings I will need. That will be a good project for next weekend.
 
(quoted from post at 21:08:38 03/01/15) The only difference in engine was 5.5 vs 6.45 compression ratio and Power Crater pistons.

AaronSEIA

NO, the 45 had a half inch longer stroke.
 

I think you have made a wise choice..

Once you have the engine block clean, use Permatex Non-Hardening sealer around each sleeve as you install them, then coat the entire bottom of the water jacket and around each sleeve..
These blocks seem to get a crack in the bottom web between the cylinders and the Permatex coat will prevent water leaks, should one develop.
Use an entire Pint in the lower water jacket )or more), to get a good coat between # 1&2 and #3 and #4..
Those cracks at the lower web is NOT a death sentence for the Block..
Don't be surprised if you see some coolant seapage at the head gasket on the Sparkplug side, until after the Re-torque..
Ron.
 
Crap, how'd I forget that. I've known that difference for 20 years. But then we get into some kind of super high level physics about longer stroke...Where's pankey when we need him :)
AaronSEIA
 

Thanks for that advice. I was not aware of the Permatex sealer.

About twenty five years ago, a buddy and I put a full ER kit including a full head rebuild in my 8N which I use to grade roads, corragate, push snow, and plow/Disc small fields and the garden.

But we installed the sleeves dry. It does still run pretty well, but I was certain we were missing something.

Is the D17 a wet or dry sleeve engine?
 
Wow, here I've been building engines for all these years and only now learned some things. (that is sarcasm by the way). Definitely some mis-information in this thread.
 
(quoted from post at 19:43:54 03/04/15) Wow, here I've been building engines for all these years and only now learned some things. (that is sarcasm by the way). Definitely some mis-information in this thread.

And most of it from a "guru" ? :lol:
 
(quoted from post at 22:42:12 03/04/15)
(quoted from post at 19:43:54 03/04/15) Wow, here I've been building engines for all these years and only now learned some things. (that is sarcasm by the way). Definitely some mis-information in this thread.

And most of it from a "guru" ? :lol:
1 more on the "Mis information".
 
(quoted from post at 21:26:21 03/03/15) Rascal 7256. Drop me an e-mail, mine is open, you don't have one listed. I have some more information I'd like to share with you. I've had a couple engine rebuilds on a D17. Mike

It seems that I do not know how to access your e-mail address from this site.

Does the site offer private messaging?

My e-mail is [email protected]
 
The best performance and fuel economy you'll ever get on one of these engines is use genuine AGCO motor kits. I always use a 170 motor kit in ANY D-17 and they are 8.0 to 1 compression !!!!!!! always have been 8.0 to 1 compression !!! best economy and power. Most after market 4 1/8" bore pistons and sleeves are only 6.5 to 1 compression instead of the original 7.25 to 1 compression a D-17 had. So, you combine a larger bore and lower compression, it uses more gas and has less HP. Sorry boys, that's the truth and nuttin but the truth. A standard 4 inch bore D-17 has 140-145 lbs of compression. The 170 is around 170 psi. Check a 4 1/8" kit and you be lucky to see 120 psi. Happy overhauling !!!
 
Ignition timing must be set at 25 degrees BTDC at wide open throttle for any AGCO kit. That is the STD timing number that has always been recommended from A-C. Some think they can "time" by ear.......not really. Use a timing light.
 

What are you trying to say..??

There are differing approaches to "Building" an engine..but ONLY one will last out in the field Working Ground..

Sure, you could put 13:1 cr in it and take it around the field (maybe ONCE) if you could KEEP the RPM high enough AND the load LOW enough (with the proper fuel)..but you will NOT put a load on the engine that will bring it to a maximum load and keep the load applied for hours and see that engine live..

Ron.
 
I have 4 allmost new 4" piston and sleave assemballys. I believe they are agco since from what ive found there the only ones selling a 4" D-17 style kit. they were in a wd 201 engine that was just recently overhauled. I went with M&W AP46 pistons and new sleaves for a "Class Rule 201" engine rebuild. this will be the pistons, rings, pins and sleeves. in there originall sleeve. I used the 4 boxes that my new sleeves came in to Keep them ready for another overhaul on a differnt engine someday.
 
(quoted from post at 16:53:47 03/05/15) I have 4 allmost new 4" piston and sleave assemballys. I believe they are agco since from what ive found there the only ones selling a 4" D-17 style kit. they were in a wd 201 engine that was just recently overhauled. I went with M&W AP46 pistons and new sleaves for a "Class Rule 201" engine rebuild. this will be the pistons, rings, pins and sleeves. in there originall sleeve. I used the 4 boxes that my new sleeves came in to Keep them ready for another overhaul on a differnt engine someday.
A 13 to 1 compression gas engine would be used in a tractor pulling tractor and I happen to have two of them. They must use 110 octane fuel or better yet 116 octane. If you did a little research on the compression ratio subject, you'd find 8.0 to 1 was actually quite common in tractors built in the late 60's and into the 70's. That is about all an engine can take with regular (tractor) gas on the farm. Totally doable, and has been done thousands of times, whether you agree with it or not..
 

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