Power Director? - forward to reverse while PTO is running

rankrank1

Well-known Member
Never operated an AC with power director. I understand how only the hand clutch allows the tractor wheels to stop while the PTO continues to run (as well as providing a pseudo shift on the fly high and lo power shift). Pushing the foot clutch stops power to both the wheels and the PTO.

Everything that I have read says to use the foot clutch to change to a different tranny gear (or to change to reverse). In other words do not use the hand clutch to do this.

So on D14, D15, D17, 170, or 175 sized units (no bigger or smaller sizes). If I am brushogging the corners of fields I often have to back into the corner leading with the brushhog, stop then pull forward stop, back into the corner again while moving over 4 feet in the process stop, pull forward again stop, and continue repeating this process until corner is cleared out. This is done to clear overhanging brush tree limbs and to clean out corners that the tractor otherwise will not otherwise fit into.

My question is: If I push the foot clutch in then I realize power will be cut to both the wheels and the PTO. Will I have to wait for the PTO to come to a complete stop as bushog slowly flywheels down before I shift from forward to reverse and reverse to forward each time I stop? Or can the allis tranny easily handle shifts from forward to reverse while the PTO flywheels down without damage?

Note: I currently do not own an Allis but the answer to this fundamental question may determine if I ever add one to my humble "junk in action" hobby collection?
 
There are two ways to solve your issue. You can temporarily
disengage the PTO after pushing in the foot clutch.
Or (the best way) install an overrunning clutch on the PTO
shaft so the mower won't backdrive when you stop forward
motion of the tractor.
 
Depending on how much wear the tractor has, it might work to use both....hand clutch to stop wheel motion, then feather the foot clutch a bit to shift quickly. Half throttle during that time will help as well. Little bit of practice and it should work smoothly.
 
Although I have never had any luck shifting either
my WD or WD-45 using only the hand clutch, I do so
with my D-17 all the time while bush hogging.
I normally have an overrunning clutch on the PTO but
this year I did not even put it on when I was
hogging. However, I believe it shifts a little
easier with the overrunning clutch.
No need to use the foot clutch or reduce the
throttle but the shifts have to be made quickly!
 
I just shift quick! Can't let gears start moving.
Helps if you are dead stopped. After you practice a
bit will come naturally. Also hyd stops, when
clutch is pushed. Using a loader on my 45 you
almost forget the foot clutch.
 
I agree with most said by others here But I also believe the problem of tranny popping out of gear is advanced by speed shifting tranny. Dead stop shifting is best in My book, but hay thats only my opinion???
 
I don't think anybody answered the question. Pretty sure that you can't speed shift from a forward gear to a reverse gear or visa versa. From how I understand the question it is, (which I would also like to know the answer to) when you put the power director in neutral does the transmission gears/shaft come to a stop so the gears can be changed without ANY grinding.
 
When you stop the forward(or rearward) motion of any AC tractor with a hand clutch, or power director(WD all the way through the 200) and the trans. is still in gear, yes, the gears are stopped. BUT, the friction between the clutch plates is trying to turn the trans. input shaft. It's much worse if the oil is cold. You can easily tell because the tractor will tend to roll- needing brakes to stop.- Mostly on a COLD winter day with the older tractors with 90 gear oil in the clutch housing.
If your clutch is in good shape(no warped plates) the oil is thin/hot, you are quick and practiced, yes, you can shift with the hand clutch/power director. But as you can see by this description, the tendency/danger is right there for grinding gears.
My first major job on the farm as a youth was driving the WD45 with a JD 214W baler, and a flat rack with two guys on it. I got so I could shift with the hand clutch. Sure, I ground it some, but in all the years we had that tractor, it never bothered(popping out of gear).
All that said , I do find that the WD, and D14/D15 shifters are not as friendly.
 
Bob thanks. I might be a little dense (I prefer inexperienced lol) but you did clear that up for me and hopefully the other guy at the top of the page. Your explanation was clear. But I have one more question now lol.
so your mowing, and say you don't have a overriding clutch. Will that transfer back to the tractor and keep the tractor moving even when you have the power director in neutral?
Thank you
 
I think I figured it out myself lol. If your mowing and can put the power director in neutral and change gears then no the mower without a overriding clutch the mower wouldn't transfer back to the tractor and try to keep it moving. It that correct lol
 
screwloose
The short answer is no. The order of parts is foot clutch first, then pto/hyd/belt pulley, then hand clutch/power director, then transmission. Disengaging the hand clutch/pd stops the transmission, letting everything else spin. If the hand clutch oil bath is cold/stiff there might be a small amount of drag, but not a problem when thoroughly warmed up.
In our young/foolish days when WD45's were new we could get the muffler to crack like a cannon. If the owner wasn't close by, get pto driven chopper or baler running full speed & slam the throttle shut. Or running downhill at road speed with a heavy load of bales/sileage. (add a bit of choke, or cut the key for a few seconds, to load up the muffler with raw gas makes a bigger bang). I can admit this now, as all the owners we kids worked for are long since deceased.
Willie
 
When mowing I speed shift from forward gear to reverse(tractor stopped mower running)quite often on my D-19. The short gearshift works good for that. That Power Director (manual)was a great invention that AC come up with.
 
None of my current fleet of tractors have live PTO, They are all considered tranny driven PTO.

My Kubota L285 has a built in internal overrunning clutch that runs in oil so it does not need an external clicker overrunning clutch. Shifts forward to reverse with zero problems while using PTO.

My farmall M I use an external clicker overrunning clutch. Shifts from forward to reverse happen easily on it if you do it quick. Push the clutch in and wait a bit though and then you have to wait for the PTO shaft to quit spinning completely or else gear grinds.

My Farmall h is a can be gear grinder regardless of PTO on or off as it has some issues (pilot bearing, oil soaked clutch, or warped clutch???). Anyway, my temp remedy on this tractor is I run it with the belt pulley engaged. If that belt pulley is still spinning then do not shift it until it quits or else gear grinds. Obviously this tractor is not well suited for corner clean up duty until I fix it properly but it otherwise works fine for all other applications the way it is.

My concern with the Allis if I were to buy say an Allis D17 series IV or an Allis 170 is that I do not want to grind gears if I can help it since those tranny's are so prone problems. Would be awful to spend $3k to fix a tranny on a tractor worth $3k-$4k.
 
I shift the pto out of gear then you can go ether way stop the tractor put in gear and pto at the same time, it doesn't take any time at all. a lot less then letting the mower stop turning
 
I've owned WD45s and still have a 175 with many hours on
it..dedicated to doing daily chores around the barn/feedlot. I did
try to use it on a bush hog many years ago..with mixed results.
clipping pastures/brush without needing to back up was ok, but
if I had an application where I had to cut the multiflora under a
tree line..or corner...needing to back up..it was a PITA. My many
hour 175 has the original transmission..no slipping/popping out
of gear... I have been very cognizant of the limitations and have
been very careful over the years. Yes, I have successfully "quick
shifted" on occasion..but have "missed" on more occasions ...
leading me to conclude that I should use another tractor for such
an application, before I do some real damage.
 
Thanks for the replys everyone. I already have more tractors than I need and have decided that I likely will NOT be adding any old Allis's to my collection.

Appears my bush hog concerns were quite valid. Thanks to those who confirmed my fears. Also had it in my mind that I wanted a 170. Upon further study, that is one really long wheelbase tractor relative to its size. Add in the tranny's jumping out of gear and simply just too many things swaying me elsewhere If I decide to another tractor to the stable that I do not really need.
 
(quoted from post at 00:13:55 01/06/15) Thanks for the replys everyone. I already have more tractors than I need and have decided that I likely will NOT be adding any old Allis's to my collection.

Appears my bush hog concerns were quite valid. Thanks to those who confirmed my fears. Also had it in my mind that I wanted a 170. Upon further study, that is one really long wheelbase tractor relative to its size. Add in the tranny's jumping out of gear and simply just too many things swaying me elsewhere If I decide to another tractor to the stable that I do not really need.

Seems you have checked the Allis off your list. I bought an Allis 180 couple years ago. The 180 has a hydraulically engaged PTO and hydraulic Power Director. I will explain my views on the Allis of that era...

As a draft tractor they are great. Using the PTO in one direction, in one gear for the duration of the job, they are good. Mowing or other PTO applications that involve changing gears or direction, horrible!

Best way I "learned" how to do it was like this... Overrunning clutch is required!

1. Power director into neutral.
2. AS SOON AS TRACTOR STOPS MOVING, Foot clutch and shift to desired gear.
3. Release foot clutch, PTO should still be spinning.
4. Feather Power Director into high or low.
5. Repeat to change directions.

Once you learn this, it becomes smooth without forcing or grinding transmission gears. But it requires both hands and Allis did not install a cup holder for cold beverages! I find it a crude system. My Farmall 504 is a 1962 and has IPTO. My LS P7010C has electrically engaged IPTO, cup holder and AC! No more mowing with the Allis or Farmall.

CT
 
As a draft tractor they are great. Using the PTO in one direction, in one gear for the duration of the job, they are good. Mowing or other PTO applications that involve changing gears or direction, horrible!

I have a 190 (gas) with a loader, and while I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "horrible" for work requiring constant gear/direction changes, it's certainly not 'smooth and easy.'

My operation is a small hobby farm - about 11 acres in alfalfa and a couple acres of pasture for a cow or two. My other tractor is a '50 8N, which I use for mowing, raking hay, etc. (before the 190, it cut, raked and baled!). While a bit overkill, I now use the 190 to run the baler, using the power director to go between 3-4 gear depending on how heavy the windrows are (or how tired my stackers are getting!). Works great there - smooth.

2012_haymachines.jpg


On the other hand, I used the loader on the 190 to backfill around my rebuilt machine shed (tornado got us last year), and I worked up a good sweat from the constant gear changing - you're using every arm and leg you have and wishing for at least one more of each. I completely agree with above - come to a full stop before changing gears! Doesn't make for a real smooth workflow, but to do otherwise means constantly grinding the gears - not a good thing.

2014_ac190_dirt.jpg


es
 
Ed, Charles, longmeadow farm

Thanks for the excellent write-ups. Your experiences further confirmed exactly what my fears were (along with the other posters who posted relevant information too).

For now my Kubota will remain my primary backing into corner cleaning out mower with the bushhog. Although it does not have live or independent PTO the tractor has an overrunning clutch built into the tractor that runs in oil. It is no problem going forward to reverse or vise versa at anytime while the PTO is spinning.

The Farmall M with external clicker PTO overrunning clutch will change directions decently as long as you quick shift as soon as the tractor stops. If you miss the opportunity though by even 2 seconds then you have to wait clear till the bushog quits spinning (30 to 45 seconds or more)to shift - a real pain.

My Farmall h would be similar but it has a bad throw out bearing so it does not shift the best even when not using the tranny driven PTO entering the equation. If it was in tip top repair it would be similar to the M though.

Will see how the Ford jubilee or Ford 850 handle this task after performing some much needed work on them this summer hopefully...They both have tranny driven PTO's too so it will be interesting to see how they handle change of directions while the PTO is still spinning even with external PTO clicker overrun clutch on them....
 

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